In this episode of Forensic Fix, host Adam Firman welcomes Sarah Simon, a senior manager at Deloitte specializing in digital forensics and cyber incident response. They discuss Sarah's background in law enforcement, her role as a special constable, and the importance of volunteering in policing. The conversation delves into the challenges faced by law enforcement in the digital age, including the complexities of validation in forensic examinations and the impact of AI on investigations. Sarah shares her journey to Deloitte and the evolving landscape of digital evidence in criminal cases. In this conversation, Adam Firman and Sarah Simon delve into the complexities of digital forensics, discussing the challenges faced in both public and private sectors, the importance of scope in investigations, and the evolving nature of technology in the field. They also touch on the significance of online safety, especially for children, and the need for parents to stay informed about technology. Sarah shares her personal journey and insights into the forensic community, emphasizing the excitement and continuous learning opportunities within the industry.
Key takeaways
Connect with MSAB via the following platforms: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/micro-systemation/?viewAsMember=true, Twitter (X) – https://x.com/MSAB_XRY and BlueSky - https://bsky.app/profile/msabcom.bsky.social
Connect with Sarah Simon on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sesimon52/
Thank you for listening to Forensic Fix - a podcast brought to you from MSAB.
To contact us about the show please visit Forensic Fix - MSAB
Adam Firman (00:01.657)
Hello and welcome to episode 19 of Forensic Fix, a podcast brought to you from MSAB where we invite guests from the industry to come on and discuss the latest news in DFIR, current issues and a general chat about all things digital forensics and investigation. So I'm your host, Adam Firman a tech evangelist here at MSAB. And normally I would introduce my guest immediately, but first of all, I just want to make an apology for the delay in between episodes. For those of you who follow me on LinkedIn, you'll be aware that I've had
pretty traumatic foot surgery where I've had metal rods and toes shortened. So it's put me out of action for a little while, but I'm glad to be back here for episode 19. And I'm absolutely delighted to say that today we have Sarah Simon joining us for episode 19. And after I've done some very poor detective work, which also AKA is looking on LinkedIn at your profile, I've seen that you describe yourself as an experienced investigator with a
demonstrated history of working in law enforcement. You're a strong information technology professional skilled in both mobile and computer forensics. And you also deal with cyber incident response as a technical responder. Your current role is a senior manager with Deloitte where your digital forensics lead. And you also practice cyber incident response. You've been with Deloitte now for five years since 2020. And prior to that, you were a police officer with
Sarah Simon (01:25.502)
you
Adam Firman (01:27.705)
Guernsey Police. However, you are extremely passionate about policing and supporting the local community. So after leaving Guernsey Police as a police constable in 2020, you've remained on with the force in a capacity as a special constable. Now, before we go in and break that down, we have an international audience here. So could you start explaining them for those internationally, a couple of key pieces that we just touched on, which I know they're going to be thinking, what?
is that? So first off, where in the world is Guernsey?
Sarah Simon (02:01.934)
Wow, depends what map you look at, but yeah, no, there's a little spec basically between the South coast of England and France and we are in the Channel Islands. So yeah, Guernsey is, and if you ask a Guernsey person, they are the best Channel Island, obviously much better than Jersey. mean, yeah, got to start with that, right? Got to start strong. But yeah, there's the Channel Islands and Guernsey is, there's actually a bailiwick of Guernsey.
Adam Firman (02:20.419)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (02:30.702)
And yeah, we're a little island there. So yeah.
Adam Firman (02:33.081)
girl from the island. And those outside of the UK will not know what a special constable is. So you just, do you want to give our audience a quick insight into what a special constable is?
Sarah Simon (02:45.612)
Yeah, sure. like special constable within Guernsey is, it's like in different areas of the UK, you'll have like an honorary officer or it's basically a volunteer or in some circumstances, it's a paid role. So like a traffic warden or like a school's traffic person will be sworn in as a special constable. But for me, it's a, yeah, it's a volunteer policing role that, yeah, basically you are, you have the same.
police powers, you're just, yeah, you're just a volunteer. So yeah, that's that really.
Adam Firman (03:21.529)
So you're still being a police officer, but you're doing it for free for your love of policing.
Sarah Simon (03:25.294)
Yeah, kind of. Yeah, was, look, I was never ready to leave the police. I joined the police thinking it was gonna be my forever. And I still have like, you know, I still to this day have not fallen out of love with policing. I think it's an incredible role. And I think the opportunity, it sounds so cheesy, but genuinely the opportunity you get within policing and the people you work with and the...
things you have to deal with. think it's incredible. And I just wasn't ready to part with that relationship. And I just thought actually moving on to Deloitte doesn't necessarily mean I need to let that go. And I was really fortunate that actually Deloitte is quite pro volunteering. So they're from day dot. were like, that's what you want to do, then yeah, so it's great.
Adam Firman (04:16.695)
Yeah, that's incredible. it's win-win for both organizations, really, because the police benefit because you bring some sort of private industry experience with you and you're still continuing to volunteer and they didn't lose all of that experience of you as a police officer. And Deloitte benefit because you also get that public sector experience and all the... which is pretty much the reason they will have hired you is because of the in-depth training.
and all of those sort of routes that you had. So it was a win-win for both sides.
Sarah Simon (04:50.252)
Yeah, I'm all for volunteering. I think more people should do it. It's a whole different world of experience and the skills that you get from it. just think, yeah, it's fabulous. It scratches that itch of going back in and seeing everyone and putting that uniform on. I've mostly done over the past year, special events and things and just getting stuck in and straight back into it and working with, you
Adam Firman (05:04.534)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (05:20.078)
ambulance staff and other people. just yeah, I love it. And you just yeah, it's just it's such a unique role. So yeah.
Adam Firman (05:27.073)
Yeah, all the all the amazing people behind the scenes that are keeping us safe and yeah, that to them.
Sarah Simon (05:32.522)
Yeah, it's just a family, isn't it? It's a crazy, but it's yeah, there's nothing like it really. yeah.
Adam Firman (05:39.521)
Yeah, yeah. That is the biggest thing that I miss when I first left law enforcement was that family that and I'm still very good friends with all of my old police colleagues and we still regularly go out and some of them are retired now but it's something that I should imagine the military's like and perhaps fires like that you just you create a bond that can't be matched in my opinion.
Sarah Simon (06:03.158)
Yeah, yeah. And it's amazing. Like I've had, you know, my network has grown since leaving and within policing, my network has grown, especially within the forensic world. And it's amazing because it's just, it's like, the forces can be so different and have completely different methods and approaches to things and strategies. Yet the people that are within those forces,
have the same terminology and the same banter and it's just, yeah, it's amazing. It's great. So yeah.
Adam Firman (06:36.045)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (06:39.833)
And for those outside of sort of the United Kingdom, it's quite baffling for them to hear that because you're 100 % accurate because every police sort of organisation in the United Kingdom, they all do things differently, which is just crazy when you liken the UK to the size of Florida as one state. But inside of Florida, you've got all of these different organisations doing their own things, but the people are still the same.
Sarah Simon (06:54.005)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (07:00.685)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (07:07.18)
Yeah, yeah. And it's just that willing everyone wants to do. Everyone just wants to make things better and everything wants, you know, just people want to help. And I do, I think more people should volunteer and I don't even, do you know what, I don't even know if people, I don't know what the, the community, well not the community, but the population know the knowledge of, of being able to volunteer. Like obviously each force is different, but.
Adam Firman (07:13.784)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (07:33.934)
actually just being able to not necessarily just for police, like community first responder and things like that for ambulance and, you know, volunteering with St. John's and stuff. It just gives you such a different skillset. And I think once you're in, it's almost like, yeah, you just, you're in, aren't you? So yeah.
Adam Firman (07:40.642)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (07:45.123)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (07:49.227)
Yeah, yeah, I was quite fortunate my old sort of police organization and for those outside of the UK won't know this but I'll sort of explain best as I can is within our county we had British Telecom headquarters. So British Telecom are a big telecoms provider providing sort of the backbone of the United Kingdom in infrastructure and broadband. And there's a lot of clever people work there, funny enough, in cyber and sort of that space.
So our police force actually opened up direct sort of entry special constables for those working in cyber, because there was so much expertise to be gained. And you know that this industry just is constantly changing. So for people to come on and feel that they're doing their part, it was a win win for both sides.
Sarah Simon (08:26.913)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (08:31.991)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (08:39.052)
Yeah, yeah definitely.
Adam Firman (08:42.495)
So we've covered those facts and currently at Deloitte and I'd sort of spoken to you many times on LinkedIn and so I know some of the current challenges that you're facing with Deloitte and the word validation and ISO just makes me quiver but in your current role what is a normal day look like for you working with Deloitte?
Sarah Simon (08:57.23)
you
Sarah Simon (09:04.462)
so do you know what it varies and my current role at the moment is yeah, going through we're just going through. We've well, we've got project work, right? So I'll have we'll have different project work coming in and different demands, whether that's kind of a legal matter where you've got devices that need examining or, or like a cyber job or
whatever the ask is, we'll kind of get, know, the project will be outlined to us and I'll either help with that or help with finding who can do it basically. But yeah, at the moment we've been going through getting all of our SOPs and policies and everything up to date and I'm, yeah, the 17.025 accreditation process.
which is amazing. And I feel, I genuinely feel so fortunate to have like got involved in it because it's huge. The ask is huge. yeah, validation as a, it's just a minefield, but I'm, I'm actually, yeah, I'm really enjoying it. And we're doing it's, it's validation within digital forensics. Cause obviously like without going down the ISO accreditation piece too much, but
Adam Firman (10:06.349)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (10:28.3)
there are so many strings to it. And ultimately, because that accreditation is around wet forensics, as well as digital forensics, it's really difficult to sit down and go, actually, does this apply to us? How does it apply to us? like, what do we like calibration, testing and validation, determining what the differences are and things like that. So yeah, I've been working a lot.
Adam Firman (10:42.691)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (10:55.15)
as well as project work on that recently. yeah, and validating tools. So yeah, fun times.
Adam Firman (10:55.64)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (10:59.147)
I do think validation makes you a better forensic examiner because it makes you question what the tools are doing and it makes you validate the answers.
Sarah Simon (11:10.57)
Yeah, yeah, there's, it's, cause you've got like the method validation as well as, and obviously you've got all the underpinning parts of that, like the competency, you know, how you documenting your case management system. You've got, yeah, as I mentioned, the documenting people's competence. And it's like,
you question yourself, you're like, how am I competent? And you write everything down and it's, it's also demonstrating like, you know, I've done a phone examination with this certain amount of time I've done a computer and identifying what disciplines you're competent for and, keeping that up and like accreditation is like I've said, it's like a minefield, but ultimately maintaining it is just a whole nother, another bag, but
Adam Firman (11:39.021)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (11:56.364)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (12:00.334)
But yeah, it's putting all those stepping stones in, all the foundations in to, yeah, getting it where it needs to be. So it's, and tool validation is, like you say, you question everything. You're like, do I know what this tool's doing? Do I know how it's doing it? Has it decoded what I need it to do correctly? And it's also the pieces to the accreditation, it's like you've got the data capture, you've got that section, and like, you know, then you've got the processing and.
Adam Firman (12:13.39)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (12:27.732)
and the analysis section of it and yeah it's massive.
Adam Firman (12:31.713)
Yeah, but but in preparation for giving that evidence and going to court and testifying, having a good understanding of that validation, questioning what's being done, I think prepares you perfectly for presenting that evidence because you know what the tools are doing, you're going to you are going to feel confident presenting that evidence because you validated it.
Sarah Simon (12:57.002)
Yeah, yeah. Because ultimately, like it's, it's, it's the biggest piece to the puzzle, isn't it understanding and being able, it's, it's not necessarily even just understanding, it's being able to then communicate that effectively within the court to say, to demonstrate, a, you know what it's doing, but can you reiterate that to a non technical person of understanding of how it's done? And it's, I mean, as you all know, it's only
Adam Firman (13:18.744)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (13:24.126)
if you can't attack the evidence, you attack the process. And so you've got to make sure your process and everything is your audit trail and your, you know, your notes are repeatable. And then, and then you've got that they've only got to introduce the slight element of doubt. And then when it comes to the forensic tool, because it's something that's not built by you. And ultimately you are trusting the frenzied.
Adam Firman (13:26.753)
Exactly.
Adam Firman (13:35.523)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (13:48.894)
to do what it says it's done. So the validation is that kind of rubber stamp, isn't it, to say that actually you have tested it and it does do what it says it does. And it's, yeah, I think it's really good and ultimately like, it's just that whole, I mean the whole point of the accreditation, isn't it, is to standardize the different forensic labs approaches and to make sure that they are doing what they should be doing and it's documented in evidence, so.
Adam Firman (13:50.092)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (13:53.731)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (13:58.616)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (14:08.769)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (14:14.318)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (14:17.942)
and
Sarah Simon (14:17.944)
Yeah, I think it's positive. It's just a lot.
Adam Firman (14:20.343)
And I'll ask you a cheeky one here. And this wasn't on the list of what I was going to ask. So I'll throw you a curve ball. No, with with validation, how do organizations handle artificial intelligence and interpret it? Is it any different to what tool is doing anyway?
Sarah Simon (14:24.11)
Neither was validation to be fair.
Sarah Simon (14:38.092)
That is such a big question. And if I'm honest with you, I don't know. And I would love to hear, I'd love, you probably love to hear, but I would love to hear as well those thinking about AI because yet, I mean, just off the cuff, I don't even really know what that would look like, but you would have to look at, you would have to look at kind of the large language models that sit behind the AI platform that you're using and like.
Adam Firman (14:46.936)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (15:03.148)
the data that goes into it is it containerized and you would have to do so much investigation to understand how that tool works on top of then your forensic tool, your methodology and everything else. Like it would be a monster, but.
Adam Firman (15:10.424)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (15:15.096)
Yeah.
To me, and it's my humble opinion, not MSABs, but it's just as simple as tool validation or artifact validation because you're going to return a result. So say, for example,
Sarah Simon (15:26.446)
Do you think?
Adam Firman (15:33.689)
chat messages were analyzed and AI was used to deem that they were grooming chats.
Sarah Simon (15:35.244)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (15:40.674)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (15:42.371)
Personally, I would never go to court and present that as evidence without validating it myself.
Sarah Simon (15:48.332)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (15:49.303)
So really, AI is just doing what Project Vic and Kate did for classification of images. You would still go in and validate, yeah.
Sarah Simon (15:57.358)
True. Verify it's there and yeah, yeah. Yeah, because the problem I suppose with AI as I was thinking is that it could lead you, it doesn't understand the context. So it could lead you to some false positives, but actually in a time critical investigation, maybe even for things like cyber.
Adam Firman (16:08.684)
Yeah.
No, it doesn't.
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (16:23.168)
an insider threat and things like that. If you know the files you're looking for, then AI can definitely kind of support the investigation. My hesitance with AI is some, that there's potential there for people to get lazy and not check things and be like, it's fine. And that scares me, but.
Adam Firman (16:32.664)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (16:42.518)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (16:48.461)
Yeah, well, that's also my pet hate is push button forensics. So it's exactly the same, isn't it? Yeah, and it's just sort of, and that's where ISO is good, because it makes people have an understanding of what they're doing. So
Sarah Simon (16:52.98)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Simon (17:04.748)
Yeah, yeah, and document it and evidence it. And yeah, I do. think it's really positive. I think it's a lot, but I do think it's, yeah, I think it's positive. So.
Adam Firman (17:17.687)
Well, that was unfair of me to chuck validation on you, so I'll move.
Sarah Simon (17:21.514)
I knew you were gonna throw it. Yeah, something was gonna come my way.
Adam Firman (17:24.949)
So I'll move on for that. So you're currently with Deloitte in digital forensics as a lead and you also do cyber incident response. How did you get to that position with Deloitte?
Sarah Simon (17:28.75)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (17:38.178)
Wow. I, do you know, I've been really lucky. I've been lucky throughout my entire career because when I left school without going, which wasn't too many years ago, but well, it's more than I care to admit. But when I left, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And my parents have always been very driven when it comes to work. And it was, you know, from...
even the age of 12, it was like, need to, you know, to think about work and it's all quite a good work ethic in me. But I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I went to Southampton and I did design studies. And my dad said to me, if you're gonna do this, you need to, you need to find yourself a job and you need to do something part time or whatever it is. And I just thought I really want to buy a Mac.
Adam Firman (18:07.256)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (18:11.982)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (18:28.108)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (18:31.576)
So I went into the Apple store and I had quite a good network within Apple at the time and got a job within Apple retail. And then as time grew, appreciate this is, I've honestly, I've still got the t-shirt, I've still got headphones, I've still got like my Apple lanyard, I've got all of the business cards. Yeah, I'm.
Adam Firman (18:40.353)
Yeah. So do you still have the t shirt? Do you still have the genius t shirt?
Adam Firman (18:53.442)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (18:58.58)
I'm massive on marketing, right? I love marketing. love things. Yeah. And Apple was, I think Apple installed that into me to be fair. But I became really, Apple really good at doing screen protectors. And then as time went on, I just decided, I've just got stuck into doing mobile device repairs. And then it kind of, it just grew from there. And then when I joined, so when I was at Apple back then,
Adam Firman (19:00.269)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (19:21.528)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (19:28.334)
the police used to come into the Apple store and I'd always see them and I'd never be involved in that. I'd be like, where, because was Hampshire constabulary. Why are they here? Where are they going? And they would, I even to this day don't know what they were doing, but I assume they were dropping devices in to get the hard drives out of whatever for examination. Cause it was always the technical team that they would speak to. So anyway, I remember speaking to an officer that came to
Adam Firman (19:34.605)
Why are they here? Yeah.
Adam Firman (19:47.181)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (19:56.302)
the genius bar and I just said to him, what do I have to do to join the police? I want to join the police. And it was just simply by seeing them, I just decided I want to join the police. And he said, and as we got talking, he said, if you're in, your parents are in Guernsey, you should apply for Guernsey police. So yeah, applied and got in. And it was about six months in that there was this high tech crime office and in police training, so it was like six months into.
Adam Firman (20:00.856)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (20:10.349)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (20:25.43)
my being out of training and stuff, so I was on duty. you'd walk past this high tech crime office and I never knew what was in there. I never knew what they did. And yeah, it was just this, yeah, this small office. You couldn't see in, no access, and you'd never see anyone go in or anyone go out. And just me being, I was like, I want to know. And I just remember knocking on the door.
Adam Firman (20:34.785)
Smoke and mirrors.
Adam Firman (20:43.789)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (20:51.094)
And I just thought, I'm good with computers. I know how to use Macs. I wasn't good with computers at all. But I told myself I was. And I was met by a DI. And even to this day, I remember the nervousness of, my goodness, that's a really senior rank. Someone like me should not speak to this person.
Adam Firman (20:54.402)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (21:10.435)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (21:15.02)
And I was like, hi, I just want to know about high tech crime. And he was the most amazing person and just told me obviously what he could tell me about high tech crime. And I just thought, I wanna work with that. I wanna work with that inspector in that team and just tell me what I need to do. And then yeah, and then over time, I moved into high tech crime and worked with amazing people, horrible work. Like the work was just horrific.
Adam Firman (21:24.483)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (21:41.539)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (21:43.692)
like, and even to this day, like, I can't believe how young I was to be exposed to that. And like a lot of people will say, not much happens in Guernsey, but there's just beyond even words, the work and stuff that you have to deal with. so yeah, so did that for a little while. And then that same DI moved to fraud and I just really enjoyed working for him. And then they had the e-discovery platform.
Adam Firman (21:47.779)
to be exposed to that.
Adam Firman (21:56.857)
Mm.
Adam Firman (22:09.646)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (22:12.886)
called Newix, wanted to get stuck into that and so moved up to Fraud and then yeah, with time, worked up there, loved it, worked with some great people and then I came across some people at Deloitte and I just explored it and then they were like, yeah, come on, because I thought I'm not an auditor, I don't do audit work and they're like, no, we've got digital forensic practice and we've got cyber practice and join Deloitte.
Adam Firman (22:31.853)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (22:38.359)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (22:42.894)
Sorry, I appreciate this is really long winded compared to probably the short answer that you wanted. But yeah, joined Deloitte and loved it ever since. And I was really lucky because during it was COVID, right? So I'd literally done my initiation, my initiation, my initial training with Deloitte in London and I landed and COVID happened and it was locked down. And...
Adam Firman (22:45.454)
No.
Adam Firman (22:54.135)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (23:01.678)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (23:07.224)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (23:08.706)
I thought, have I done? I don't know. I'm so new into Deloitte and like police are just so under resourced. I should be, I should be with the police. And because I was searched team when I was in the police, they were dealing, they were doing a lot with COVID and obviously having to support the medical staff. And I just thought I need, I should be there. Like I've left at the wrong time. had massive doubts. And then as time,
Adam Firman (23:15.864)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (23:34.361)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Simon (23:36.078)
I remember my husband was like, just stick with it, like stick with it, you've made this decision, like you just need to go with it, like just have faith. And yeah, and I did. I honestly, it's, yeah, I haven't really looked back, but then I've also not really left. yeah. So yeah, it's been great. And then about a year into working for Deloitte within the forensics team, I then started to also work with cyber incident response team.
Adam Firman (23:49.635)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (24:05.922)
to support, yeah, be part of the hotline and the technical responders there. And I really enjoy that as well, because again, it's that emergency services and it's supporting people at times where they see things that are suspicious and they need that support. And I love that. I love being able to help people in that rush, yeah.
Adam Firman (24:12.312)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (24:16.387)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (24:27.949)
Yeah, because I don't know if it was the same for you, but in my high tech crime unit, I wasn't really ever exposed to sort of that urgent incident response need. It sort of didn't come to our level. And there's so many there's so many elements that are linked between the two, but they're also so very, different.
Sarah Simon (24:40.364)
No.
Sarah Simon (24:51.232)
Yeah, yeah. And I think that it is two different mindsets, but also it's just so important to scope the job correctly at the time, but also like the job just changes so rapidly and like you can be so set on kind of a root cause or like an early assessment and then next thing you know, you've got a whole nother infrastructure or business that's involved or.
Adam Firman (25:01.977)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (25:06.691)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (25:18.476)
some new key information that just completely sidelines the investigation. So scoping is so important, but yeah, I do, I enjoy that rush. High tech crime's a weird one because I feel really, really fortunate compared to like now where technology moves so fast, whereas I feel like I grew up with it. Because when I started high tech crime, you still had floppy disks, you had...
Adam Firman (25:29.923)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (25:40.429)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (25:47.351)
Yeah, tight backups and yeah.
Sarah Simon (25:48.194)
You know, had, yeah, like optical, it's just, yeah, it's crazy. Whereas now, when you'd have like phones and you'd have to be like, how do I approach this phone? Don't take the battery out. Like, yeah, and you'd be like, how do I, you'd always have to sit there and you'd think, whereas now you've got devices that if you don't, I mean, if you don't handle them correctly or even, you know, with the new iOS features of like the threat,
Adam Firman (25:55.065)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (26:00.044)
infrared. Yeah.
Sarah Simon (26:16.824)
protection and things, or like biometrics. If you don't consider all of that and how it's set up and all of the settings, then yeah, can, well, you might not get any, it could be the difference of you getting data to you getting nothing. So.
Adam Firman (26:17.88)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (26:30.819)
Yeah. And because you've still got those links into law enforcement by being a special what we've briefly touched on just there, that sort of encryption challenges that face law enforcement. What would you say the other challenges that law enforcement face when because digital evidence is part of every single every single offense now?
Sarah Simon (26:50.552)
it's everything. Yeah, it's everywhere, isn't it? Like, gone are the days where you would be like, there would be an incident and you would have like, you know, a victim with a phone and a laptop and you'd be like, okay, that's what I've got to deal with. Now it's like, and I feel, I actually feel really sorry for police because I just don't know how you ever, I just don't know how you keep up with it. Cause if you add all the resources, like constraints and stuff, budget constraints, cause forensic tools,
Adam Firman (26:54.69)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (27:03.928)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (27:12.611)
Yeah. No.
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (27:19.754)
aren't cheap, know, the kit aren't cheap. And then you add in the ISO stuff and the expectation. And then you add in the fact that, the training and the fact that like law firms now, they've potentially got forensic people embedded in, you know, in those law firms that can question your evidence. that, you always had that threat, didn't you? But you'd never really see it. Whereas now it's like, it's everything.
Adam Firman (27:26.329)
training.
Adam Firman (27:34.894)
Yeah.
Yeah But You were probably similar to me that I think back to when I first started in high-tech crime and so you'd look at the list of jobs that were waiting or being processed and it was mainly illicit images of children or High-profile offenses murder kidnap that that's all whereas when I left it was fatal car collision. It was burglary because
Sarah Simon (27:53.42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (28:06.751)
everybody walks around with a mobile device in their pocket. whether that can back up a collision investigators theory that a vehicle was traveling at this speed. Well, now they've got a phone with them. So that's also going to record data. So it just I don't know how they're meeting that demand. I just really don't.
Sarah Simon (28:09.74)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (28:25.9)
And it's like the location settings, you've got ring doorbells, you've got like vehicle forensics, you've got, there's so much now because it's like even like the air tags and it's, there's so much technology to support an investigation, but there's also a lot to question. And that's what.
Yeah, and then you've got apps that are like deliberately built to deceive and you've got, you know, things that are to hide and it's become so much more advanced encryption, know, chipsets have just developed. And the thing is now like, you know, when we did forensics, you'd have like, make some models of phones like iPhones, you probably have one kind of every two years or you would have, there wouldn't be significant changes. Whereas now the list of like,
Adam Firman (28:55.106)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:11.747)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:16.345)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Simon (29:18.594)
different features is just endless. And it's all of those things like, yeah, it's it must be a real challenge. And I think I think the biggest challenges must be and this is again, this is just, you know, all my opinion, but is budget constraints and resources because the technology is there, you know, they there's there's so much evidence to collect now, but actually that just
Adam Firman (29:19.853)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:35.374)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:43.426)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (29:44.806)
what was a job that could be turned around in kind of a couple of days will now take weeks because plus you've got all the data protection legislation now it's yeah it's insane I yeah I do feel sorry for for people that have to deal with that that's for sure so
Adam Firman (29:49.751)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:57.293)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (30:01.655)
Yeah. And thinking of law enforcement, compared to private sector where so you've got a in both sides, really, what would you say are the main differences working in a private sort of forensic investigation compared to public sector?
Sarah Simon (30:20.376)
That's a difficult question. mean, the challenges that I've noticed in me is thinking from a corporate perspective. And I still find that challenging. Even now, like
The work within digital forensics isn't actually that much different, whether it's public or private, the work is the same and the demand is the same. It's just within policing, you haven't got the pressure of the financials attached to you, like the time and materials, it's almost like you have to investigate this crime. And rightly, that's how it should be done, right? It's not a business. Whereas in the private sector, you've got to think about
Adam Firman (30:52.332)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (30:58.423)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (31:04.738)
You've got to think about revenue, you've got to think about the scope of the job. And what I find really difficult, especially when it comes to like investigations is I want to investigate everything, but you've got a clear defined scope that you have to stick to. And I found that as a struggle initially, but yeah, it's the same but different. So.
Adam Firman (31:15.222)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (31:20.078)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (31:23.49)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (31:27.885)
Yeah, but but that scope is also creeping into public sector, isn't it? Because especially like dealing with victim and witness devices, for example. Yeah. So and I always. Yeah. And I go back to like you spoke about the floppy disk and apologies for the younger people who are listening, they won't even know what they are, but you could search every bit and bite on those devices because it was manageable, whereas.
Sarah Simon (31:35.122)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, because it's almost like the priority of the data, isn't it? Of what you, yeah.
Sarah Simon (31:56.258)
Yes.
Adam Firman (31:56.511)
Now you could have a Samsung phone with two terabytes of data and it's just you have to have scope. And you and I are nosy. That's why we're in this industry. But you can't go down those rabbit holes because you will just never finish an investigation.
Sarah Simon (32:02.252)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (32:13.164)
Yeah, yeah, it's true. You just have to stick with, yeah, what the job needs and what the outcome needs to be.
Adam Firman (32:19.437)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's just really difficult. Like, I worked with a chap who, if I ever wanted someone to do an investigation, I'd want it to be him, because he would turn over every single stone. If he was doing a Pulsar search, a police search for an item, he would search every blade of grass. But as a business, as a private side, that can't happen. But also even public sector wise, they haven't got the resources anymore.
Sarah Simon (32:42.467)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (32:47.309)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (32:51.839)
No.
Adam Firman (32:51.937)
And that's where now you'd bring in a drone or a police helicopter with a heat map to search for something. And there the differences is that. I know that my old colleague would still be shaken going, I still want to search every blade of grass. And rightly so, because that's the way they were trained. But we have to as an industry, we have to change and adapt. And unfortunately, sometimes it's because of there's just too much.
Sarah Simon (32:57.922)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (33:05.619)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (33:17.206)
Yeah, yeah. I think they, because I, without derailing this conversation completely, when I did the police search team training, I think my, I've just became more obsessive compulsive because now the searching system systematically and the hot, training of, know, physically searching a room, it's ingrained in me for life. And, it's, it's,
Adam Firman (33:30.029)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (33:39.587)
Yeah.
See, I did that and I still lose things and my wife still complains to me.
Sarah Simon (33:46.988)
My husband, I drive my husband nuts because if I lose something, I'm like, right, start from the corner, let's work up. And he's just like, no, you know where it last was, like just go there. And it's like, no, if I don't find it, we've got to do a fingertip search. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But yeah, I want to search and it's that you don't miss what you don't know that just lingers in my head. And I'm like, well, what if, what if? And it's like, no, you just have to. And that was the biggest, yeah.
Adam Firman (33:51.489)
Yeah, let's work our up. Yeah. Now we have to do a clock.
Adam Firman (34:09.431)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:14.265)
Yeah, you've got justification. I think as long as you've got justification for your scope, then that sort of is what allows you to sleep at night. But I totally understand that it is the what if but it's no different to if you were trained on tool a in the year 2020 and you go and sit training in 2025 and you're like, ah, the tool does that now. I could have used that on that. You only know what you know at the time.
Sarah Simon (34:16.781)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (34:20.769)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (34:25.303)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (34:39.638)
Yeah. Yeah. I know with your releases about BFU, I'm like, let's, I'm not even thinking about that. I'm not even thinking about what all the phones that you could get data off of and yeah, yeah.
Adam Firman (34:43.787)
and you can't get into that mindset.
Adam Firman (34:49.955)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:54.551)
Yeah, that's very hard to, but that's what we both clearly love about this industry is that it doesn't stand still. It's constantly changing. We clearly both love tech, so that sort of helps as well. And for those considering a career in this industry, what piece of advice could you give them, Sarah?
Sarah Simon (35:05.986)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (35:18.104)
Just, if in doubt, just, I mean, just go for it. See what's out there and start like this. And actually your podcast really introduced, is it the DIJV Diva? The YouTube videos, DFIR Diva, that's it, yeah. What did I say? Did I say the wrong thing there? DFIR Diva, yeah. Don't know. All that. Yeah.
Adam Firman (35:33.433)
DFIR Diva. I think you were, yeah. I don't know. Listen back. It sounded like you were going to say DJI Maverick drone or something, but.
Sarah Simon (35:46.222)
No, not today. the yeah, the DFIR DIVA vid, there's so many free resources out there and actually only since seeing your podcast, I was like, I wish I had that years ago, but there are quite a lot of, um, forums and open source, um, videos and things that you can just go and explore. And if I could go back, I mean, they weren't available then, right? So, but if I could, um,
Adam Firman (35:54.573)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (35:58.211)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (36:15.362)
Yeah, give any advice. I'd be like, actually just explore it. Explore what roles there are and actually like just have faith in yourself because I remember applying for the job at Deloitte and I just thought there's no way I'm going to get this. Like there's no way. I just don't know if I could ever leave the police. And I had so many doubts, but I thought actually, no, I'm just going to give it a go. And the thing is going back to policing, the core, those core competencies that makes you a police officer or civilian within a police force.
Adam Firman (36:18.657)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (36:30.83)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (36:44.684)
I just think they're so underestimated and they're such good skills. Actually any business would be lucky to have, because if someone can, the communication skills and the strategic thinking like on the spot, yeah, and I just think if you're interested in digital forensics and it excites you, then definitely get involved in it because...
Adam Firman (36:46.923)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (36:50.914)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (37:06.582)
It is an exciting field. Like some people say to me, it's so boring. Like data recovery, you're just plugging it in and it's machine time and you're just watching status bars, but it's not at all. It's challenging or thinking going, well, I've got that data, but have I got that data the right way? And have I documented it properly? And when it comes to analysis, what do I need to look for and where could that be? Has it been decoded in the right way? And it's all of those. And cause it constantly changes. I just find it really exciting.
Adam Firman (37:14.51)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (37:26.743)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (37:35.597)
I remember when one of my friends got into this industry and they were then learning about data within data. So they were looking at SQL tables and finding out about blobs. And he actually said to me that he sat up in his personal time watching it on YouTube and it does it. It grabs you.
Sarah Simon (37:53.984)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (37:56.097)
And it is solving puzzles. That's what I like in it too.
Sarah Simon (37:59.126)
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. it's that, and sometimes you literally do have that, I mean, they say in the police, don't they square pegs for round holes and things. Sometimes you do find things and you're like, that doesn't fit. And you're like, actually, well, what else? Like there's, there's a bigger picture here and it's, yeah, it's that problem solving and that investigation. And I do, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy it. And yeah.
Adam Firman (38:08.002)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (38:14.734)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (38:20.033)
Yeah and like you say that there's a lot more that is available now for people because when you and I started there wasn't all of the public resources that there are available to people now. There's even degrees at university specialised and in forensics now and there's
Sarah Simon (38:36.001)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (38:41.1)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (38:42.785)
You've got the DFIR Discord channel, you've got all DFIR DIVA content, you've also got a ton of open source tools that the community and that make and you've got capture the flag images that you can practice on. really, you can get really good insight into if it is your your kind of thing by taking part in those capture the flags.
Sarah Simon (38:50.636)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Simon (39:03.498)
Yeah, yeah. And there's just such a good community. There is, I love the forensic community online because there's always like someone's, you're not afraid of asking questions. Like people ask questions and go, I've come across this, what do you think? And then people will comment and it's, there's, there are, there are so many resources online. yeah, I would just, to anyone exploring forensics as a role, I would just say just, yeah, go, go for it. And if you think, you know,
Adam Firman (39:18.04)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (39:26.167)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (39:31.008)
If you enjoy it and you think it's interesting, yeah, just keep peeling back those layers. And there's always something to learn, right? You can never, can't, it doesn't stop. Like it's such a moving target. And as soon as you think, I'm, you know, I know this, can, it's not like, you know, using example like carpentry, you get qualified as a carpenter and joinery or whatever. You've done it. And then you can kind of, you can do a roof and you can do whatever else.
Adam Firman (39:37.827)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (39:48.343)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (39:54.402)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (40:01.484)
with forensics, you get your certification, but the tool changes and the feature changes and then the new devices come out and you're thinking, well, hang on, I was competent and qualified then, but actually now there's this gap, there's a gap in my knowledge and there's always something to learn. And I love that. I love that.
Adam Firman (40:12.046)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (40:17.911)
Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And that's why I'm still hooked to this industry is because it just doesn't stop. What what you've
Sarah Simon (40:26.156)
Yeah, that's why I follow you on LinkedIn because you give me all the I get all the the info about all the different changes and the new features and that yeah, yeah.
Adam Firman (40:34.775)
Yeah. Yeah, and there's, there's some great, like recently, at the beginning of this year, I was fortunate to go to the safer working group on digital evidence, where they were, and it's a really amazing organization with people who are given up their time to go and sit on these panels. And they were then put in a policy paper together a positional paper about preservation of digital evidence. And it's because they've, they've had to react to vent
Sarah Simon (40:44.739)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:04.875)
manufacturers changing like when a device locks and there's all those sort of things and that's why this industry is like no other so I couldn't recommend it enough to anybody.
Sarah Simon (41:08.556)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (41:16.236)
Yeah, the area I do, I'm really passionate about is online safety, especially for children. And I feel like I just want to do more in that space. And there was a lot of resources online, but like, again, without derailing this, it's like how are parents meant to keep on top of like, these kids grow up with this technology, like they almost know it straight away, like toddlers use tablets and know where to go and.
Adam Firman (41:22.819)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:36.492)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:41.527)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (41:44.344)
things like that and you've got parents that might not necessarily be, you know, into technology and having to understand parental controls and then app restrictions and then it's just, yeah, there's definitely more to do in that space. yeah, and that's another reason why I do, I just it. And I'm ultimately, I do feel as a parent now, I need to be.
Adam Firman (41:53.186)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:59.62)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (42:06.338)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (42:12.706)
keep myself up to date with technology to keep my children safe.
Adam Firman (42:15.353)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'd 100 % agree with that. And there's some great work being done sort of in the industry around that. And they're making the big corporate companies, Snapchat, Meta, for example, then they're making them rightly so put in procedures to protect our children because it is the internet is an amazing
Sarah Simon (42:38.422)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (42:43.577)
capability, but it's also exposing children to stuff that they should never be exposed to.
Sarah Simon (42:50.112)
I know, and so young as well. like, do you to meet? It's almost taking away their childhood to some extent, but there's so many layers to it. Like you've got the device, you've got the applications and like I've got a mesh wifi set up and I manage it from, you know, from the network perspective as well. But I can guarantee you the thing is in some households, it'll be the, it'll be the children that are setting up the networks and the children setting up the applications. And that scares me. But yeah.
Adam Firman (42:51.927)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (43:00.835)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (43:12.055)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and and I know with we've spoken about this app affair and I'm not just naming this one app There's plenty of apps that bad but roadblocks is one of them and you and I both came across that in law enforcement as you know, not a good place and recently the BBC interviewed the CEO of roadblocks about some of sort of the age verifications that are going in and Yes, as a company, they're probably doing what they have to do. Maybe they're doing a bit more and
I'm doing them a disservice but what really hit home for me was how he closed that interview with the BBC and he basically just said don't let your kids on roadblocks in which to me seems such a yeah which seems such a sort of that's not taken ownership of that problem.
Sarah Simon (43:48.216)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (43:56.654)
Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's not. Yeah. No, no. It's, and it's such, there's so much pressure. Like my children, you know, they say, can we go on Roblox? We want to go on Roblox. And I'm like, you look at it and it's the, app is how do you, how do you police it? How do you police it? And how do you keep the, yeah, I just, and it's the chat. It's like, well, like with any application, it's then the chat, the inbuilt functions and.
Adam Firman (44:17.357)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (44:25.592)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (44:27.372)
You just don't know. You don't know who that person is. And do you know what, that's one thing I always remember going back to my story about knocking on that high tech crime that day is what I found really interesting and that kind of really inspired me with digital forensics is within using police as an example, you can get two accounts of the story and whatever the incident probably is, is the gray in the middle.
Adam Firman (44:32.91)
No.
Adam Firman (44:55.544)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (44:56.194)
But computers can't lie. And it's either it was there or it wasn't. And then yes, there'll be like now there'll be time and date stamps, which might not be correct. But if the data's there, like you then investigate and you're not being deceived, you're not being led down a garden path, you haven't got the bias. And that's what I love about it is you get, it's almost like a point of truth. And this is where the apps.
Adam Firman (44:58.275)
No.
Adam Firman (45:01.655)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (45:14.285)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (45:21.076)
scare me because you've then got the deception. You've now got apps that are being built to deceive, to store files that look like other things. But the devices can't lie. If that app's installed, it's there. you will find, if the files were there and deleted, you might find fragments. You might get the whole deleted file out of it. But you've got that point of truth. And what scares me about chat is now you've got, it's like even Facebook.
Adam Firman (45:26.391)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (45:32.577)
No. Yeah.
Adam Firman (45:45.315)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Simon (45:50.54)
you can be trying to sell something innocently on Facebook or whatever and you don't know who you're speaking to. And the next thing you know, someone's at the other end of the line messaging you about the, I don't know, about the kids toy you're trying to sell. they'll just be trying to collect credential harvest and just get all your information. And people are so even to the state, innocent to that and be like, I live in this area and yeah, you can come or phone me. This is my mobile number and they'll, you know, it's yeah, crazy.
Adam Firman (45:56.332)
No.
Adam Firman (46:04.631)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (46:10.391)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (46:16.887)
Yeah, and maybe like you say, but and it is education. I'm fairly lucky that my parents are probably why I got into techno. My dad, especially is still very technical. But there's a lot of people out there who aren't and even people our age would probably technology will have gone past them. Maybe platforms like Facebook and these popular apps, they should make people watch educational videos about
Sarah Simon (46:46.113)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (46:46.598)
you know, and maybe they should be doing more.
Sarah Simon (46:50.926)
The is, people just cheat it regardless, don't they? If you go watch this video, people will just forward it on and get the child to watch it. There's so many... I've always thought a way... It's not the school's responsibility, but almost like... I don't even know if it exists, but there must be...
Adam Firman (47:00.59)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (47:14.582)
charities or something focused for online safety that could go into doing like parents evenings and just talking to them about privacy settings. Because Guernsey is a really tight community and I love it because you can't go anywhere without bumping into somebody. And I get approached quite a lot, know, kind of what's it can be basically can be like what's the best Wi Fi router to get or what's this, you know, I've got this new phone, how do I set it up?
Adam Firman (47:39.886)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (47:42.85)
How do I, I've been asked that it's back up, what do I do? But I do get a lot around, you know, one I had last week was my seven year old's got a mobile phone. Is it okay to have WhatsApp? And I'm like, A, that's not my decision. That's your decision. But I would just be mindful of how you're gonna protect that child with that phone and for what purpose? Like let children be children, you know? And no.
Adam Firman (47:56.056)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (48:01.763)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (48:06.157)
Yeah, exactly. No seven year old needs a phone.
Sarah Simon (48:11.98)
I mean, if you asked my seven, soon to be eight year old, she would definitely tell you she needs a phone. She'd probably give you a good business case actually as to why she needs a phone. But yeah, but like in school, know, kids will go home and to have mobile phones and parents think, it's a great idea because I can contact them when they're at activities or whatever. actually like, I don't know, maybe I'm old school, but I just think it's, need, children need to be children and they need to have like, yeah, you know.
Adam Firman (48:15.619)
Yeah.
She's learning from someone good then.
Adam Firman (48:31.384)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (48:41.688)
live their life outside before they get stuck behind screens 24-7. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (48:46.457)
And on that happy note, I want to swing it around and let our listeners go away happy rather than dwelling on how bad the internet can be. My final question is, can you give our listeners a random fact about you? What there's never guessed or even if you can't answer that, what would you be doing if you weren't doing what you're currently doing in digital forensics?
Sarah Simon (49:12.814)
Do you know, I thought about this question for a while. was like, what is an interesting fact about me? And what I've realised is I need a hobby. I need a hobby. So you could ask me in six months time what my hobby is, hold me accountable because I need a hobby or something to do outside of work. That's clear. But yeah, I mean, I'm a mum of four, right? So I've got a seven, gonna be eight year old, a six year old.
Adam Firman (49:21.858)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (49:28.045)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (49:42.794)
and twin toddlers who are two. So it's insane. It is beautiful chaos, but it is chaos nonetheless. And whenever I say I've got four children, everyone's like, my goodness, how do do it? And I'm hopefully, I'm hoping it's because of my youthful looks rather than my working hours, but maybe a mix of the two, but we'll go with the first one.
Adam Firman (49:46.474)
You are very busy.
Adam Firman (49:54.284)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (50:04.206)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (50:11.01)
But what would I be doing if I wasn't doing this? Well, I don't know. Do I have loads of money? Do I have to work?
Adam Firman (50:20.545)
My guess would be you'd have a shiny massive Mac and you'd be doing design if that's from sort of way.
Sarah Simon (50:27.27)
I don't know. After my Powerboat 2 course, I suppose that's another interesting fact about me is I recently undertook Powerboat 2 to learn how to drive a powerboat. I don't know if I'm the best captain of the boat, because I swear I was better going backwards than I was going forwards, but we moved it. It moved nonetheless. And yeah. Yeah, did you?
Adam Firman (50:36.898)
OK.
Adam Firman (50:43.769)
Right.
Yeah.
I remember the LinkedIn post now. I had forgot. Yeah.
Sarah Simon (50:54.432)
Yeah, I need to add that in that, you know, when I'm at the helm, I get called captain from now on. Yeah, I still need to get like a hat, but I was dreading that boating course and I loved it. I absolutely loved it.
Adam Firman (50:59.149)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (51:04.249)
Yeah.
Well there you go. You've just given me the title for this episode. Captain Simon.
Sarah Simon (51:11.608)
have you gone? What is it? Captain Simon. Amazing. But yeah, no, would, I would, if I had loads of money, I would probably have a big yacht, a big light, not big yacht, a big power boat, super yacht sort of thing. And I would, I would travel much more. And I don't know, I, if I didn't have to work, I would probably, I'm big on volunteering, I'd probably volunteer and do.
Adam Firman (51:14.681)
It's cut to me.
Adam Firman (51:25.24)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (51:37.239)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (51:39.118)
I don't know what I would do. I would definitely need something to fulfil my time. But, yeah, dunno.
Adam Firman (51:47.017)
sort of cyber security advisor sort of in that capacity.
Sarah Simon (51:50.166)
Yeah, marine forensics is definitely a thing.
Adam Firman (51:54.19)
Yeah.
Sarah Simon (51:56.098)
Maybe that, maybe that's my thing. Yeah.
Adam Firman (51:57.293)
Yeah, there you go. So if you do the lottery and you win, we know what's next.
Sarah Simon (52:03.532)
Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah, watch this space, fingers crossed. I've got the worst luck, it's never gonna happen.
Adam Firman (52:12.632)
I normally say the same and then my wife will say to me, do you actually do the lottery? And I'm like, no, you're never going to win then are you?
Sarah Simon (52:17.742)
No, yeah, yeah, it's true. I did one scratch card like one, so I thought that's it. I've got 100%. Exactly, exactly. So yeah, but no, thanks for having me.
Adam Firman (52:23.993)
Quit while you're ahead. it's been a pleasure having you on the show, Sarah, and thanks for joining us. And I'm sure our listeners are going to have found your journey and experiences extremely insightful. And I'll make sure to link out to your LinkedIn so people can connect with you on there. But no, thank you very much for joining us on the show, Sarah.
Sarah Simon (52:41.782)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Awesome, thank you.
Adam Firman (52:48.611)
Thanks all.