In this episode of Forensic Fix, host Adam Firman speaks with Hannah Bailey, a former police officer turned trauma therapist, about the critical importance of mental health support in law enforcement and digital forensics. They discuss Hannah's personal journey, the stigmas surrounding mental health, and the need for proactive rather than reactive support systems. The conversation highlights the unique challenges faced by professionals in high-stress environments, the signs of secondary trauma and burnout, and effective coping strategies. Hannah introduces BWRT (Brain Working Recursive Therapy) as a promising approach to therapy that avoids re-traumatization. The episode concludes with a call for organizations to create psychologically safe workspaces and to provide comprehensive mental health support.
Takeaways
Mental health support is crucial for law enforcement professionals.
Proactive approaches can prevent severe mental health issues.
Stigmas around mental health often prevent individuals from seeking help.
Therapy has evolved and can be more solution-focused today.
You don't need a diagnosis to seek therapy.
Recognizing signs of burnout is essential for mental health.
Digital forensics professionals face unique mental health challenges.
Coping strategies should include activities outside of work.
BWRT offers a new way to address trauma without re-traumatization.
Organizations must prioritize mental health support for their employees.
Connect with Hannah on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-bailey-40a85a1a5/
https://www.bluelightwellbeing.uk
Adam Firman (00:01.71)
Welcome to episode 22 of Forensic Fix, a podcast brought to you from MSAB, where we invite guests from the industry to discuss the latest news and issues that surrounds digital forensics and a general chat about all things digital forensics and investigations. So I'm your host, Adam Firman from MSAB. And for this episode of episode 22, I'd like to welcome Hannah Bailey, who is a highly respected level seven trauma therapist.
psychotherapist and a well-being coach. Celebrated for her compassionate and expert support to individuals facing trauma, PTSD, bereavement, burnout, anxiety and more. So Hannah is a former police officer so she has first-hand experience and a unique blend of resilience, empathy and frontline insight to her practice. She currently partners with police, emergency services and organisations like Homicide Support,
guided powerful journeys of healing and mental wellbeing. She's also an experienced wellbeing consultant, trainer, and a public speaker. Recently, Hannah has taken the stage at events like the BWRT Annual World Congress, where she shared both professional and deeply personal case studies using brain work and recursive therapy. As an inner to therapy that she applies successfully in her work.
In her own words, Hannah is an SME in mental health and wellbeing. She's purpose driven and deeply committed to supporting individuals through every stage of their trauma recovery. So I've given you our listeners a brief insight into Hannah. And for those of you who follow myself on LinkedIn, you'll be aware that I've recently ran a webinar on this very issue and Hannah, I was very grateful that she was a guest on the show, but
For those of you who didn't catch that webinar Hannah and who may not be aware of you, could you give us a brief introduction as to how you've ended up where you are today, please?
Hannah Bailey (02:03.966)
Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for that, Adam. I didn't write that intro, so thank you. A very glowing intro. Thank you ever so much. And yeah, a little short insight into how I got here. So as you mentioned, I was a former police officer. So I was in West Midlands Police for 15 years. But I suffered my own mental and physical health setbacks. So I had PTSD.
I didn't know that for probably a couple of years, I would say, because we had no training, awareness or education. You'll know that Adam as well around mental health and wellbeing and policing. So I, but I also became very physically unwell as well with cancer. So I actually had two lots, two different types of cancer over two years as well. So I really had to take a long hard look at
my work, but my life and lifestyle as well, Adam, wasn't, know, work was a huge toll and we know the toll that can take, but it can be our outside lives as well. Can't say it's not just all about work. And for me, it was that combination of it all. So I decided to leave policing, which was a really, really tough decision for me, despite how poorly I was. didn't know what I'd be if I wasn't a police officer. had no idea I'd been in since I was 21. So literally didn't have any clue.
what I'd be if I wasn't a police officer. So it was a really, really tough decision, but it was the right decision and I'd been very, very poorly and I needed to spend some time getting well, which is what I did. But then I realized that actually, I'd got lot of lived experience, but perhaps if I gained those professional qualifications as well, then this is something I could use for the good of creating a new career, but one that's...
yeah, would also help people that were struggling as I'd struggled and hopefully help people as well. Not just who are struggling, Adam, and perhaps really poorly, but my passion is almost catching people before that. I do really strongly feel that if I'd known more, if we'd had more things like this, more awareness, more talking, more education, I probably didn't need to get as sick as I did and perhaps could have caught this earlier. So that's a big passion of mine as well. And hence...
Adam Firman (04:09.09)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (04:24.138)
coming on podcasts like yourself, which is brilliant and thank you for asking me to talk about it today.
Adam Firman (04:29.006)
And we covered that sort of proactive approach, didn't we, on the webinar? And another panel guest, really emphasised that point that we need to be more proactive rather than reactive in this sort of headspace of people.
Hannah Bailey (04:34.506)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (04:43.112)
Absolutely. Yeah, completely. And I think we were just chatting about it beforehand is that it might not just be one podcast you hear or, you know, it's about, then you might hear something at work and then you might read something and then you might see something on the news and it, you know, probably one thing won't change our minds or stigma or culture around that or our fear around it, if I'm honest. But the more we talk about it, the more we just make it a normal conversation, then that's what will help change it.
Proactively, definitely agree with you.
Adam Firman (05:11.8)
Yeah, and I know we may cover it anyway, but what do you feel are the stigmas around mental health?
Hannah Bailey (05:20.224)
I feel that I think everybody would know that the stigmas, are stigmas in these types of roles. So law enforcement, policing, investigating roles. There's a lot of stigma that because you are the people that others go to or turn to in probably the most hideous times of their lives, that we've got to be the ones that can cope with that. Watch it, see it, hear it, deal with it.
and that we've got to be okay. I think we're all sort of probably aware that exists, but I think it's deeper than that. I think it's our own fears as well and our own stigmas, often how we've been brought up, Adam, as well. It's not just the work we're in. I think it's our family cultures or religious cultures as well. There's so many different factors into what creates an overall stigma. So it is within these jobs.
but it's our own fears and beliefs as well. I think there's a huge barrier to therapy. We were chatting about that a little bit beforehand and there was for me as well. Like I definitely had probably the wrong ideas of therapy. And I know I mentioned to you, if you're happy for me to share this, I think there's three myths a little bit about therapy and maybe I could share that and dispel some of those myths because it might help people come forward.
Adam Firman (06:39.202)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (06:47.4)
One of the first myths I would say about therapy is that I think people think, certainly in our roles, that you have to be absolutely broken to come and get help. Like, and that people only turn to a therapist when you're on your knees, perhaps suicidal, and your life has literally sort of fallen apart. And I would like to just, what we were saying there, catch people earlier than that. Like, if people just think they're struggling, things aren't going so well, maybe their thinking doesn't feel as clear.
Maybe other family members or friends have said, you're really snappy all the time, you're really irritable, you're not present very often with the kids or whatever, like just those signs, come earlier. I know you mentioned it, I'm a wellbeing coach as well. So it doesn't have to all be trauma therapy. We could help get in earlier and start putting some structures or changes in place or a plan in place for you to not break actually. So that would be one of the things. Please don't...
Adam Firman (07:33.059)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (07:42.306)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (07:45.024)
Adam, nobody has to have a diagnosis or a referral to come and see me. I try and remove as many barriers as I can to people just picking up the phone, dropping me an email and seeing what help they could have. So come as early as possible, I would say. Yeah. So that would be one of the first ones. The second one is that therapy has really moved on. I think probably people have an image, a thought of it, of like, I don't know, 30, 40, 50 years ago.
of therapy, of lying on a couch for maybe two years while you unpick every aspect of your life. And a lot of therapy has changed from that. There's so many different things you can do. So many different approaches. I know shortly we're going to talk about the approach I use, Adam, BWRT, but it is one of those that is very solution focused. is about you struggling, feeling awful, feeling shit, being honest. How do you feel better? How does this trauma get resolved?
How do you get back to work or your family or your life that you like? And so lots and lots of therapy now is much quicker, much more effective. So please do your research, talk to people, any therapist worth their soul would give you a free consultation to build a rapport, ask questions, find the cost, find the length of time, that sort of stuff. So yeah, there's lots of different options, so please explore them. And then the third one, I think again, is
sort of along the same lines, but I want to stress here, starting therapy or saying you need therapy or some help is not sort of this one way street of a downward slope to losing your job and you know, this sort of very bleak picture perhaps if you feel you have to start therapy type thing. So I work with loads of people who may be off sick, but they get back into the role they love and the job they want to do.
I work with lots of people who are still at work as well. You don't have to go sick or be off sick. So we can absolutely work it how you want to work it with obviously keeping you safe and as best as possible. But we can work it so that if that's what you want to do, you can be well and healthy again with the life that you want and that you choose. It's not some one way downward spiral. It really isn't. Yeah.
Adam Firman (10:04.45)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (10:05.758)
So those, yeah, I think it becomes a real barrier to accessing help and I want to remove as many of those barriers as I can. Yeah.
Adam Firman (10:13.068)
Yeah. And do you think there's another sort of stigma or myth around it that if somebody sees that they have a physical injury, that they can obviously physically see that if they break their arm, they're in pain, they can see a physical injury, they go to a doctor. But we don't proactively look after ourselves, do we? That it like
Take our vehicles, for example, here in the UK, every 12 months we have to get them serviced and checked for an MOT to make sure they're roadworthy. And they're going to be checked for things that we can't physically see. But I often make this point, is that we pay to look after and service equipment, but we very rarely do that to look after ourselves, do we?
Hannah Bailey (10:52.978)
Yeah, hardly ever, hardly ever. And as you said, Adam, it's knowing those signs and symptoms, because, like you said, constant migraines would be, you know, something that you go, okay, that's not right, a broken arm, feeling sick and vomiting all the time or something, you know, they would be things that we'd go, this isn't right, like, we need to go and sort this out. But because we don't, I don't think, properly talk about signs and symptoms and what that means. Adam, I thought mental health meant either that I was suicidal,
Adam Firman (11:07.778)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (11:22.002)
self-harming or extremely violent. That's what I thought mental health meant because of policing really, to be really honest. So I wasn't any of those things. And I remember that I wasn't suicidal. I wasn't lashing out to everybody and I wasn't self-harming. So every single symptom I had, I normalized it as because I just thought that's what all police officers had and because I didn't know and I had no awareness of that. So like you said, we need to
Adam Firman (11:28.27)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (11:42.99)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (11:49.392)
one proactively, almost as you said, those MOTs, but just even proactively knowing that those are signs that maybe, hello, we shouldn't be normalizing this, this isn't okay. And actually that's when you could get some help, yeah.
Adam Firman (11:59.116)
Yeah, yeah. And for someone who works closely with trauma, especially for those guys and girls joining us who work in law enforcement and sort of emergency services, what unique mental health challenges do you think that people who work in digital forensics face on a daily basis?
Hannah Bailey (12:20.906)
So I, having done a lot of work on trauma in the brain and how the brain processes trauma, what I have learned is that our brains are actually really efficient processing trauma. They really are. And lots of us that have worked in law enforcement will know that we can actually go to some of the the toughest stuff, the most hideous stuff, and we're okay, actually. And that's genuine. We are genuinely okay. And that's because the brain has got a really efficient system in place to process trauma.
And everything, shock, stress, all of that, it all goes on in the brain, it's brilliant. But, and there is a but, there's a tipping point or an overwhelm point or a burnout point for certain sections of the brain that when we constantly expose it to trauma, you know, this is something that the brain can do, but it should be given time to do it, a breathing space to do it, a process to do it, certainly those more extreme traumas. The problem in digital forensics, in law enforcement,
The problem is, is that we're going to more and more these days as well, Adam, we're going to trauma after trauma after trauma. So there is only so much that brain will keep processing it efficiently like it has been doing, but at some point it will burn out and become absolutely overwhelmed and it will stop doing that. So that's the issue is the constant exposure to trauma and then not enough awareness or even respect, I would give it that word, of what the brain might need some help with.
Adam Firman (13:33.804)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (13:41.208)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (13:48.906)
to process that endless exposure. Yeah, endless exposure.
Adam Firman (13:51.244)
Yeah, yeah and As an ex forensic practitioner myself and for all the digital forensic analysts they often deal with distressing content such as child sexual abuse material and Violent imagery because I I don't think I'd ever I got warned about the child abuse sort of side of work but I never got warned about the the violent imagery and sort of videos that I was subjected to and they used to really affect me but
For those still working in that space, what are some of the signs that someone might be able to sort of spot when they're experiencing secondary trauma or burnout and how can they recognize or more importantly, how can those working with them spot those signs?
Hannah Bailey (14:38.292)
Yeah, really important question because I think as we just touched, it's not about how everybody feeling suicidal or self harming, which is what I thought were those signs. So there's some really clear signs. Generally, these would be to do with PTSD. But to be honest, Adam, they come under the very broad umbrella of lots of different mental health issues that people might come to me with.
Adam Firman (14:44.407)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (15:01.278)
What will happen is, is when we're just talking about that processing, the brain at some point will just be like, I cannot keep processing what is going on. So it starts to almost shut down and say, I'm just not going to be able to process this. So we need to know what those signs are of not being able to process stuff. So one of them will be, not will be, could be, sorry, is best to say, disturbed sleep. And that is because the brain processes most during sleep.
Adam Firman (15:19.245)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (15:30.602)
So if there's this overload going on and the brain's almost trying to get through this huge backlog by time you actually finally put your head on the pillow, what you'll find is, that sleep is very often disturbed. So nightmares, night terrors, but even just, even if you're not having nightmares, just insomnia, light sleep, waking up, can't get to sleep, waking up early, signs that your brain just cannot switch off and do its job properly in terms of processing. The other is things like,
Adam Firman (15:41.422)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Bailey (16:00.306)
Becoming desensitized. So now it's hard, Adam, because there's a certain level of desensitization you need when you're looking at those types of images and videos. Of course there is. But where I would say it means the brain's becoming overwhelmed is if that overlaps into your outside life as well. So that means cutting off emotionally from people that you'd expect to have emotions with. So your loved ones, your kids, your friends.
Adam Firman (16:26.444)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (16:29.184)
colleagues as well. So it probably would show up in terms of people saying maybe you're a bit insensitive, you're a bit thoughtless, you're a bit cold, you're a bit detached, those types of things. The flip side is too much emotion. I don't want to call people too sensitive, but we've all got a sign, Adam, we would know, crying at almost anything, not even crying, Adam, but like your eyes welling up, that sort of it catches you over anything.
Adam Firman (16:38.99)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Bailey (16:58.322)
or bursts of anger, irritability, panic attacks, those types of things. And Adam, it would be in situations that you'd normally expect to be fine. So I know people come to me saying like, how come I'm having a panic attack in Sainsbury's? How come I can't get on the tube? I'm like terrified to get on the tube. So where you wouldn't expect to have those levels of anxiety or stress. So yeah, sleep, relationships.
emotional, either shut off or heightened emotions would be some of your really common. And I think Adam, all of us who've been in those roles will have experienced that at some point. So what I want to say here is this, you might have a nightmare about something that you've seen about work. And you might think, okay, I don't need to go and see Hannah for that. But you know, I was having nightmares probably three or four times a week with PTSD for months and months. So
Adam Firman (17:38.828)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (17:56.478)
That is where my brain was not functioning and processing what was going on. So yeah, it's not perhaps your one-off things or maybe a bad week. This is when it's not resolving and not improving.
Adam Firman (17:59.896)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (18:08.962)
Yeah, and in your experience of working with people in sort of from law enforcement and these sort of high trauma exposed occupations, what practical strategies or coping mechanisms have proven most effective for those who work in jobs and it could be law enforcement, military, a number of jobs that are exposed to traumatic sort of
material really and sort of content and it could be visual, could be written like there's even people who sort of process these cases through court. They may never be exposed to the visual side of things, but even reading content aloud sometimes is enough. So what practical strategies or coping mechanisms have proven most effective, Hannah?
Hannah Bailey (18:45.888)
Exactly.
Hannah Bailey (18:57.662)
Okay, so going to talk first about some personal things you could build into your life. And then we'll talk about maybe if that's okay, some professional side as well, because I think they both got a really important place. So personally, I would say, understand if you can, not everybody knows this, but you can sort of, you can test a few things and dip your toe in the water and give things a try. What helps you come away from work as much as possible. So
You and I will know Adam, probably ourselves as well, that phrase job pissed. like, you know, always in work or always doing overtime and only got friends in work and stuff like that. So I loved my job too. And I was really proud of what I did, but I started to almost have no life outside of policing. And, and I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that get that too. So you need for your brain to not feel like the whole world is what you're seeing online.
Adam Firman (19:32.131)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (19:43.182)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (19:54.236)
or whatever you are processing through your work. You have to allow the brain to realize that that's not the whole world. And so you can come away and your brain needs to feel safe, connected, relaxed, loved, loving, those types of things. So engage in those things. So whether that's family, friends, I mean, for me, and it sounds daft, but dancing. So I love dancing. I did it as a child and I didn't do it all through policing. And then since I've been well, I've taken it up again.
Adam Firman (19:55.939)
Mm.
Adam Firman (20:09.494)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (20:23.194)
So it's an outlet for me that's nothing to do with trauma or policing at all. So find things that are almost the absolute opposite to your job. Those are the things that the brain will thank you for like times 10. So, please don't think it has to be like, as am I massively, massively champion meditation, breath work and sound baths. They're just an incredible processing tool.
Adam Firman (20:26.36)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (20:31.534)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (20:36.012)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (20:50.49)
it's off the scale. It's like processing on steroids. So those three things. But if it's not for you, it doesn't matter. Find those things that are the complete opposite to your job, I would say, and build them in as much as you can. yeah, sorry, go on.
Adam Firman (20:53.421)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (21:04.462)
I think I mentioned it on the webinar, but I've got a friend who works for Homeland Security and he travels across the globe sort of educating people in regards to investigating this horrible sort of child abuse world. But his switch off and his Lego, he finds that just sitting down and building Lego switches him off.
Hannah Bailey (21:26.826)
So that brings me to that. That's a really good example. So what I want to say is it's so the best things that help processing are what's called a bilateral stimulation of the brain. So that's fancy therapy speakers, isn't it? So basically it means anything that brings in both your left and right sided brains, because you need the whole of your brain to process properly. They're in different sections of the brain. So the more you switch both on at the same time, the more efficient processing is.
So anything that is logical, so that will be like Lego, like anything that takes coordination, so dancing is one of them, writing can be one of them, art, playing music, so anything that takes a logical function to undertake, but then also creativity. So the minute you bring creativity into it, you light up, if you like, both sides of the brain. And as soon as you light up both sides of the brain,
Adam Firman (22:19.597)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (22:23.944)
and not for two minutes, but yeah, maybe half an hour, an hour, whatever, your brain will start processing in the background. It's a really efficient way to do it. So even though it's a lovely thing that he just likes doing, that's probably why he finds it so useful. Yeah, really important.
Adam Firman (22:26.221)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (22:38.136)
Yeah. And you're right about the exposure to work because when I was a police officer, like my brother's still a servant police officer, and you're correct that you almost feel that you're in this bubble and that your social circles have to also be in law enforcement. you even find, and I left the police six years ago and I went to an event with my child the other night where sort of got talking to other parents.
And as soon as they find out that you're a police officer, they want to talk to you about it, they want to know about that world, and you can't escape it.
Hannah Bailey (23:10.856)
Yeah, yeah. It's really hard. like, and how long have I been out? I've been out about 10 years. And people still, if they know you're a peace officer, they still ask about policing. They're not interested in my job now, but they, they want to know about policing 10 years ago. So yeah, it is one of those. And it is about just being aware. You know, it's not about saying to people, I won't talk about it, but just answering a few lines, and then actually just really tactfully change the subject.
Adam Firman (23:22.818)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (23:37.976)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (23:40.872)
and talk about something else, but it's not about avoiding it completely, but it really is about actively building any activity, any life completely away from what you're absorbed in at work. Yeah.
Adam Firman (23:52.29)
Yeah, and you've mentioned BWRT in your work. How might therapies like that be used to support professionals in digital forensics who are struggling with their mental health impacts?
Hannah Bailey (24:06.44)
Yeah, so this is the therapy that I'm, the psychotherapy that I'm trained in. And it stands for brain working recursive therapy. And I found it myself when I had PTSD. So I've also been on that side of it, sat on the client patient side of it and found it incredibly effective. And it's the reason I would say, Adam, and all the wellbeing stuff I do is important.
But I would say BWRT is the reason I do not have PTSD. You know, I don't have nightmares. I don't have flashbacks. I don't have flare ups of PTSD. I don't hold on to bitterness and resentment and anger about the job. So I do not have PTSD and that is down to BWRT. So when I talked earlier about the myths about the myths about therapy.
One of the things I wanted to find was something that meant that, yeah, that I didn't, so I wanted a solution to PTSD. I didn't want to just talk about it to be honest. I'm not knocking what anybody else does, Adam here ever, but I didn't want to just talk about it. I wanted a solution to not have these symptoms anymore. And BWRT gave me that. So the other reason why I really liked it,
and it resonated with me, is that you do not have to talk about your trauma in great detail. So a lot of talking therapies and psychotherapies require you to recount in great detail what you have seen, experienced, witnessed. So you can imagine with police, but very particularly digital forensics, that is incredibly traumatizing. And a lot of people will avoid therapy because of that. And BWRT, do not need to do that.
So I need to know a little bit of course how people are feeling or responding, but I don't need to know your trauma in great detail. So it moves the brain on from that trauma very, very quickly and effectively. it's a really, it's quite new therapy. It's about 10 years old, I think, but really gaining massive traction in these trauma type worlds because we don't want to keep re-traumatizing people, Adam, through.
Adam Firman (25:55.022)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (26:18.026)
therapy as well, you know, we really don't want to. So, but if BWRT is not for them, there's other ones out there as well. And that's why I say like, it's really moved on that we can absolutely heal fully from some of the things that we have seen and dealt with.
Adam Firman (26:35.766)
And from a leadership and organisational perspective, and I know that you work with some organisations as well, what more can be done to create a psychologically safer workspace for those working in these high stress environments like digital forensics and other elements of industries that are exposed to trauma?
Hannah Bailey (26:55.912)
I think Paul mentioned it, he was really passionate about it on the webinar and I completely agree that certainly for these types of roles, there should be mandatory, I don't even want to call it counselling anymore, mandatory either counselling therapy or coaching even, because it's not about, as we said, it's not about picking people up when they're broken. So that coaching side is really important as well.
Adam Firman (27:13.282)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (27:21.18)
So, there should be mandatory. just makes it, and not tick box mandatory, like once a year. So, something meaningful with credible practitioners that understand that work and so that you can build a rapport quite quickly. In law enforcement, tend to get quite skeptical, cynical people, and I understand that too. I've been there myself, so I know those feelings. So, people that can build that rapport.
Adam Firman (27:44.109)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (27:50.88)
can understand their work and genuinely make this a normal thing that everybody has to do. Because otherwise you become, if it's just off your own back, it's still, is it a secret? Is it that you get moved? Is it, yeah, there's still so much negativity attached to it. If we made it mandatory, then it would remove so much of that. And for leaders, I...
Adam Firman (28:05.816)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (28:11.768)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (28:21.704)
I'm mixed here, Adam, because I do work with lots of police forces and there's some that's still very tick box. I'm going to be blunt. And your employees are not stupid. So let's just be blunt. They're not stupid. They know if it's tick box or they know if you're doing it for promotion. So you can't bullshit your way out of it. That's honest. You just can't. So stop treating them like idiots. They're not idiots. They're really important people in your business.
Adam Firman (28:28.803)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (28:43.532)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (28:51.634)
And so, but I also know leaders and teams and wellbeing teams and all that, that, my goodness, Adam, do it from the most incredible place and the most genuine place. So learn from the people that are doing it well because they're making a true difference. And it's not that you're going to save everybody, Adam, you're not, but if you can make a true difference, then we're getting there. We're going in the right direction.
Adam Firman (29:07.149)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:12.866)
Yeah.
And I sort of spoke about how I used to have mandatory support sessions, I would say. And I had no exposure to this sort of world. Like before getting into forensics, I was undercover drugs world. And then I moved into the digital forensic world and sort of then started working with horrific content. I was warned about prior to joining the unit. had a close friend who was a sergeant at the time. And he said to me, Adam,
We can't sit here today. I can tell you about the content, but you can't sit here today and I can't tell you that you're going to be OK and you can't tell me that you're going to be OK. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that you have to be exposed to to know if you can deal with it. So we got through that and then I started in the unit and every six months we had mandatory counselling and this was an independent specialist who we would go around, sit and have a cup of coffee and.
To be honest, you talk about holidays, you talk about what music you like, you talk about anything but the job. And I used to come away quite cynical because you are, as a police officer, you're very cynical. But now I've had time to look back because that mandatory support was taken away when I was still serving and it was changed to a tick box. And I look back now and I realized that even though was cynical at the time and thought this was a complete waste of time, all I've spoken about is where I'm going on holiday this year and...
other issues. But now I look back and I know that that person would have been trained to spot telltale signs. And as best as I could and put a guard up, they still probably over those sessions every six months would have been able to see telltale signs. And I think once you change it to a mandatory tick box, police officers and other people in that industry are clever people, they're going to learn and probably all do the tick box at the same time of what boxes to tick.
Adam Firman (31:10.146)
And potentially, you're then changing a scenario that goes into a reactive rather than proactive. And if I could give my old bosses any advice, and that would be that you invest in officer safety equipment, you invest in stab vests for a reason, but they need to start investing in looking after people's mental health.
Hannah Bailey (31:35.04)
And I completely agree with you and going back to sort of what you were saying about talking about holidays and stuff. Yes, absolutely. They're trained to spot certain words, lines, even deflection. So the fact that you won't talk about anything is actually a sign anyway. the, cause sometimes like when a client first comes to me and we have a first session and that, and I'll ask them a question and it like all sort of something flows out for about half an hour and they'll say, sorry for.
sorry for just going on and I say, no, no, it's really helpful because I will pick up certain words, phrases, whatever. I don't mean to sound like sort of surveillance here, but I work, you there's certain things that I know I can watch them as well, body language and stuff like that, how they change when they, or their tone changes when they talk about certain things. So that's the first thing. But the other thing that's really important about even if you just get together, I would even say every three months, I'm going to be honest, but
Adam Firman (32:13.463)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (32:33.088)
for a chat with somebody and a talk with somebody is that what happens is that the brain starts to at least just trust that person, even if it is talking about holidays. And the brain loves things where they feel safe, comfortable, connected, trust, any of those things. So if you've built up that and then that person starts struggling, then at least the brain knows there's somebody that they know they've got this meeting coming up. They know what that person, I don't know, sounds like, looks like.
what they're going to talk about, whatever. So it's much easier for them to start saying, actually, I sort of, yeah, I suppose I have been really struggling with my sleep this week, for example, because they've been talking to that person regularly. So it's that's the proactive side. That's, I would say, Adam, like 90 % of my work is word of mouth. So it's all very lovely being on social media and stuff like that. And that's good. But most of it is word of mouth. And that's because the person who's seeking help
has asked for a recommendation because they want to find a chink of trust or like accountability or something that will say this person will help you. And if you set that up already in your workplace, then the brain knows that is somebody, that's a door that's already open for them. That's why it's so proactive and so important.
Adam Firman (33:34.52)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (33:51.554)
Yeah. And one of the other things that was highlighted on the webinar we did, and Paul has recently published an article on forensic focus is about the, and unfortunately we ran a poll and this was proven to be true that most organizations offer six sessions. And then anything beyond that is the responsibility of the employee. But what would you say to leaders and organizations about that? I know that really upset Paul to hear that that was still common practice, but
Hannah Bailey (34:17.865)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:19.31)
from your perspective now, now you're outside of that world, is six sessions enough?
Hannah Bailey (34:24.992)
The short answer is no. So I agree with Paul on it. The short answer is no. But what I do want to say to leaders or organisations, again, almost this, let's break down this myth then of counselling and therapy, because I do think they probably feel we haven't got the money to put everybody through two years of therapy. And I understand that too. So I suppose what they're trying to think is what should we offer? Let's offer six because we can't offer two years.
And if that's what's needed to get everybody better, then we can't do that. So maybe let's at least get them talking or something, get it off their chest and let's hope that helps. So no, I don't think six is enough, but for example, I work for homicide support. So I support families through murder and manslaughter, the families of murder and manslaughter victims. So I offer bereavement specialist therapy and they offer 12 sessions. And for the most part,
because of the therapy I work with, is, it's certainly getting there to be enough. And I can certainly, I hope, really genuinely help those clients and those patients. 12 sessions is, yeah, really useful with a therapy that is definitely moving people on. So I suppose what I wanna say to leaders is, don't think that it's all gotta be two years. There's definitely a better middle ground than six sessions.
Adam Firman (35:49.484)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (35:50.388)
which really is no, it isn't gonna do it, but it isn't two years. And I think I've been talking again about particularly in law enforcement and the world that sort of you're working in now, you do tend to get quite suspicious, quite skeptical, definitely high defenses. So you need a few sessions to at least just start breaking that down, you know, and then just moving into a place where you can actually move on and talk.
Adam Firman (35:52.588)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (36:10.274)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (36:17.888)
So yeah, you need to respect and understand the clients that we'd be working with, you know? So there's these natural barriers already and we've got to move those first. So I'm with Paul on the big no to six sessions. And also, Adam, I'd say to those leaders or organizations, why don't you come to people and ask, like myself, like Paul, come and say, what would, okay, it might not be two years, but what would really help?
and then we could talk that through from a professional perspective.
Adam Firman (36:50.168)
Yeah, well, I thought about it after that webinar and I likened it to, and I don't know if it was the same for you, but when I joined the police, we had a seat, this is how old school our old police force was, we had a seamstress who we would go to and they would measure us up for our uniform. And we would be measured up for a stab vest to fit us correctly and protect us. What we're trying to currently do with six sessions is give everyone a, say a 60 centimeter stab vest and say, well, that'll fit the majority.
Some people it will be overkill, some people it won't cover their vital organs. But that's what we're trying to do with these six sessions. And it depends. And exactly like you said, I had that initial meeting with the seamstress to discover what I needed. And like you say, that's what organizations and leaders could have, that initial sort of assessment that say, where do we need to go with this?
Hannah Bailey (37:41.342)
Yeah. And following on from your, your stab vest thing, it's almost like giving everybody the same stab vest and then saying, is yours a bit big? Better go and put some gaffer tape on it or something, because it's just like saying, you know, we haven't really got the time for you to be adjusted properly for your stab vest. So if we, you know, I, you could put on a bit of weight and then it would fit better kind of thing. So it's sort of like trying to get this really quick fix to something that actually just needed a bit of time and attention and detail. And, you know what, Adam, when you
Adam Firman (37:50.65)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (37:56.536)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (38:01.292)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (38:10.644)
give people that time and attention and detail, their healing is so much quicker anyway. So I can see people looking at their successions thinking, why should I even bother starting? And so they feel like from the start, they're on the back foot and this isn't gonna be even worth it. Whereas I think if you started with 12, what Homicide Support did do, I hope this is still right if anybody's listening from Homicide Support, but is that if you got to the end of the 12,
And you said, actually, could I just have funding for two more sessions because we're just finishing dealing with something or whatever. They would take that on a case by case basis and look at whether just there was like one or two sessions more needed. So yeah, it treated people as an individual and with the respect that they needed for what they'd been through, understandably with murder, manslaughter. But it's no less different or traumatic to the type of traumas that you're exposed to in your world.
Adam Firman (39:08.13)
Yeah, and I'm going to throw you with this one because I didn't prepare you for this question, but something I want to ask you and Paul on the webinar, and that is you both are still continually exposed to trauma in what you're listening to and what you're dealing with. How do you cope with that now?
Hannah Bailey (39:11.968)
Hahaha.
Hannah Bailey (39:28.736)
So two things that I think are really important. So from an external perspective, I practice what I preach. Sorry to say if that sounds swotty, but I do practice what I preach. So I look after myself, I have boundaries, I have supervision. So legally I have to have supervision because of my governing body. I mean, it's bonkers, isn't it Adam, that I legally have to have supervision for my trauma exposure.
Adam Firman (39:38.467)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (39:53.443)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (39:56.244)
but the people who are actually working in trauma, I know I am, but as in, you're probably more frontline than me, definitely, than not having mandatory supervision or coaching or therapy. So I have to have that legally for my governing body, but I do practice what I preach. I know the things that help me process my day and resolve my day and look out for myself. And I will say that doesn't mean I'm perfect at it. So do I have weeks?
Adam Firman (40:06.819)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (40:25.14)
that at the end I think, my God, I'm absolutely overwhelmed. Yes, but I recognize those signs so early now that I put things in place very, very quickly to pull back and make sure that I'm feeling in a really good place. So I do practice what I preach, but I'm going to say another thing because I think this is so important for all the people working in these roles is I have immense value and reward, immense value and reward. And I sadly think...
Adam Firman (40:31.342)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (40:54.196)
there's lots of roles within law enforcement that are not getting value and reward out of what they're doing, whether it's to do with internal cultures and support and recognition of that, or even externally, like hideously poor sentencing for offenders and stuff, you you just think you've had to look at all that material, and then actually nothing goes to court or they get a suspended sentence or whatever. It's utterly demoralizing and...
Adam Firman (41:10.595)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (41:21.776)
Most people do this work because they want to, being blunt, put the bad guys behind bars or whatever, get justice for a victim. They do. It's quite a simple outcome they would like. And if you're not getting that value and reward, it's utterly demoralizing and you're far more likely to hit burnout, compassion, fatigue, those types of things. So I think I have an external support system I put in place, but I've got a really good internal sort of value.
Adam Firman (41:28.226)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:32.835)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:49.036)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (41:49.566)
dopamine hits I'm getting, I guess, with the work that I do. So both are important. And that's why, again, culturally, it's so important to recognize what your employees are doing. Yeah. Thank you.
Adam Firman (41:59.948)
Yeah, thank you Hannah. And to finish on a lighter note, because it's quite a heavy subject, but it's something that we both feel passionate that people need to talk about. Can you tell our listeners one thing, maybe a hidden talent or surprise and hobby or something that nobody would be able to guess about you?
Hannah Bailey (42:21.054)
I don't know about nobody would be able to guess. I've already talked about, something weird and wonderful about me. No, it's not really weird and wonderful, but I think I touched on it in terms of dancing because when I was a police officer, certainly a female in a very male role, it was all about being tough and not being sensitive or not being too girly or not, you know, I just was so aware.
that I never had to look like the sensitive girl. And I absolutely loved when I was a little girl, ballet and dancing and tutus and stuff like that. I shunned that for my very macho police officer role and didn't take up that really sensitive side of me. so now I do, I actually don't do ballet, but I do a lot of dancing. like, kind of like you'd see on the Strictly Come Dancing type stuff.
Adam Firman (42:58.371)
Yeah.
Hannah Bailey (43:16.8)
I do lots of that and I absolutely love it. Again, the people involved are nothing to do with policing or trauma or anything. So it's lighthearted, it's fun, it's creative. I get a lot out of it. yeah, that's something that's really important for me to keep up.
Adam Firman (43:34.808)
Yeah, and that's your switch off for Hannah. Thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your insights, your experience and mostly your compassion. The work that you do is vital, but it's deeply inspiring. And for those who follow me, they'll know how passionate I about about mental health. And it is an especially important topic for people who work in digital forensics who, like we covered in the webinar, who carry the unseen weight of of what they encounter and
Hannah Bailey (43:41.344)
Thank you. Thank you.
Adam Firman (44:04.894)
perspective you've given us here today, just reminds, continues to remind people the message that it's okay to seek support and it's essential to do that. And Hannah, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and thank you for everything that you do for support and the well-being of those on the front line. But thank you for joining us, Hannah.
Hannah Bailey (44:16.672)
Thank you.
Hannah Bailey (44:23.808)
Thank you so much for having me on, really, really appreciate it.
Adam Firman (44:27.342)
In the podcast show notes I'll put a link to Hannah's LinkedIn and to her website if you want to seek out and further support from Hannah, but thank you
Hannah Bailey (44:36.116)
Thank