Forensic Fix

Forensic Fix Episode 23

Episode Summary

In this episode, Adam Firman interviews Sonja Ryan, founder of the Carly Ryan Foundation, who shares her personal journey following the tragic loss of her daughter Carly to an online predator. Sonja discusses the foundation's mission to promote online safety for children, the introduction of Carly's Law in Australia, and the importance of education and awareness in preventing online exploitation. The conversation also highlights the challenges posed by big tech companies, the need for preventative measures, and the importance of community support and mental health resources for victims.

Episode Notes

In this episode, Adam Firman interviews Sonja Ryan, founder of the Carly Ryan Foundation, who shares her personal journey following the tragic loss of her daughter Carly to an online predator. Sonja discusses the foundation's mission to promote online safety for children, the introduction of Carly's Law in Australia, and the importance of education and awareness in preventing online exploitation. The conversation also highlights the challenges posed by big tech companies, the need for preventative measures, and the importance of community support and mental health resources for victims.

Connect with MSAB on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/micro-systemation/?viewAsMember=true, Twitter (X) – https://x.com/MSAB_XRY and BlueSky - https://bsky.app/profile/msabcom.bsky.social

Be sure to connect with Sonya on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonya-ryan-oam-3243045b/

Check out the Carly Ryan Foundation website - https://www.carlyryanfoundation.com/

Sonya is also currently running a national research project that is being conducted by the Australian Institute of Criminology, please see the details below of how you can participate.

We are pleased to offer your school the opportunity to participate in a national research project being conducted by the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) in partnership with the Carly Ryan Foundation.

Funded by the National Office for Child Safety through the Australian Attorney General’s Department, this important study aims to evaluate the potential impacts of the Australian Government’s proposed Social Media Minimum Age Restrictions Bill, often referred to as the social media ban.

What’s involved?

We are inviting high schools across Australia to take part in a longitudinal, school-based survey involving students aged 11–15 years. The survey will explore students’ opinions, feelings and experiences, in relation to social media and online safety, including  any negative and harmful experiences they have had online.

What will the survey ask?

For schools/principals who would like to participate, we will send a copy of the survey and participant information sheet which includes more detail on types of questions (social media platforms used, opinions on the social media ban, experiences of being asked to send nude pictures, ‘deepfake’ images, being tricked into doing things online, and being threatened online). The survey will also provide students with contact details of services for support and advice about negative experiences online.

To support your school’s involvement, the Carly Ryan Foundation is offering a free, evidence-based online safety presentation to participating schools. These engaging sessions aim to empower students with practical knowledge and strategies to navigate the online world safely.

Uniquely, these sessions will be personally delivered by Sonya Ryan, Carly’s mum and the founder of the Carly Ryan Foundation.
Sonya stepped back from regular school presentations several years ago due to her international advocacy and advisory commitments, making this a rare and meaningful opportunity for students to hear directly from her. Her sessions are powerful, evidence-informed, and deeply impactful for young audiences.

Why participate?
• Empower students to have their voices heard in a project that could shape future legislation and policy.
• Support a nationwide effort to better understand young people’s online experiences.
• Access a rare and free expert-led online safety session delivered by one of Australia’s most respected voices in online safety.

Participating schools also receive free fact sheets and resources for the school, parents/carers and students, including how to navigate the social media ban, links to counselling/support, and other online safety education, plus an easy-read summary of results from the study.

Availability for these free presentations are limited. We are currently taking bookings in Term 4 - October 13th to December 12th, 2025.
We would love to discuss this opportunity with you further and provide additional information about how your school can get involved. Participation is voluntary and anonymous, and appropriate consent and ethical safeguards will be in place.

 

 

Episode Transcription

Adam Firman (00:04.492)

Welcome to episode 23 of Forensic Fix, a podcast brought to you from MSAB where we invite guests from the industry to discuss the latest news in DFIR, current issues and a general chat about all things digital forensics and investigations. So I'm your host, I'm Adam Firman. I'm a deputy director of tech sales here with MSAB. And today I'm truly honored to welcome Sonja Ryan to the podcast. Sonja is the founder and the CEO of the Carly Ryan Foundation.

 

an organization that she established after the tragic loss of her daughter Carly in 2007 to an online predator. Since then, Sonia has dedicated her life to ensuring young people are safe online, working tirelessly as an advocate for online safety and child protection. Her efforts led to the introduction of Carly's Law in Australia, a legislation that gives police greater power to intervene when they suspect an adult is grooming a child under the guise of a false identity online.

 

Through the foundation, Sonya provides education, counseling and resources to children, parents and education, making an enormous impact both nationally and I'm pleased to say internationally. Sonya, I've given our listeners a small insight into your journey and the incredible legacy that you've created in your daughter's name. For those who may not be as familiar with the work of the Carly Ryan Foundation, could you share more details about your story, your path?

 

to where you are today and the foundation's mission, please. Of course. Hi, Adam. It's lovely to be on. And I hope that we can have a great discussion and also leave listeners with some really helpful tips and also give some information on what the foundation is planning to do in the next year as we move forward in this work.

 

So my daughter was a victim of an online predator who was operating over 200 fake profiles online. He used his own son to be the voice of the fake identity of a boy. He created fake family members to kind of back up his stories. It was a very elaborate cunning plan.

 

Adam Firman (02:25.903)

to try and gain access to young girls. And he tried to meet girls in the United States, in Singapore, and of course groomed Carly for over 18 months using his son, pretending to be this young lad who showed interest in her life. We now know the typical grooming techniques that we were certainly not aware of back in 2006, seven. Really trying to isolate her,

 

you know show her that he cared, that he was interested in her school work, that he was interested in her family and over an 18 month period Carly truly believed that this young boy truly loved her and cared for her and he used that to convince her to meet with them alone without telling me and that resulted in her brutal murder and of course

 

when investigators came through my back door and notified me that they'd found a body of a girl, my whole kind of world just shattered and fell into pieces. And you you just can't prepare yourself for that kind of information. And you know, Carly was such a loving, beautiful young girl. She was so trusting and so caring for others.

 

And for somebody to come up with a plan to manipulate, deceive and, you know, ultimately lure her to her death is just, it's like something out of a horror movie, sort of a normal person really can't comprehend the likes that Gary Newman went to to lure my child and for what purpose, you know. And so for me, I think

 

you know, really my whole world dissolved around me. And it was also trying to comprehend how a person could be so cruel, you know. And Carly suffered tremendously. And that was evident in the, you know, those horrible things that I had to do, including identification of her. And so you can imagine as a parent, it was absolutely the worst thing I've

 

Adam Firman (04:51.478)

ever been through and would not wish it upon any parent. And you know, really my life collapsed around me and you know, I was offered drugs, I was offered, you know, all kinds of things from doctors to cope, but somehow in that deep sorrow, I really had an enormous sense of clarity. And I just decided to not take anything to not, you know, try and suppress the pain.

 

but instead to face it and to feel it. And it was one of the hardest things I've ever been through, but I honestly believe because I kept myself clear that I was able to sort of move through the grief, but also have this insight into what I could see needed to happen in Australia.

 

At the time, you know, we're just coming into Facebook smartphones, we're just beginning to be introduced. And I just knew, no, this is just the beginning of an enormous threat to our children. You know, here we are, criminals are online using the anonymous nature of platforms to access our children, to fake their identity and age, to access them, to deceive them. What can I do? I have to do something. I don't want anyone to ever...

 

ever have to identify their child like this and I certainly don't want any child to have to suffer as Carly did and lose their life. So very quickly you know I guess I was in a bit of a very strange disassociated space for probably about four years. It's almost as if time stops when you're in that much trauma and things keep on moving around you but you're in this strange disconnected

 

space and it took a little while. I spent some time in France in a Buddhist temple which really helped me to sort of face the pain and sort of go, you know, figure out a way of how to transform the suffering into a way of being able to benefit others. I'm not particularly religious but it really, I guess those people really helped me to reconnect to myself.

 

Adam Firman (07:14.41)

and find what I needed within to survive losing my only daughter. And you know learning techniques like meditation, you know being with self, you know and a whole range of other things. Well when I came back from that retreat I really thought okay right we need to somehow honor Carly with a legacy that can help prevent help prevent crimes against children.

 

How can we do this? Let's write up a constitution. What's our mission going to be? And our mission is obviously going to be to prevent harm against children online, you know, to provide the community with resources, education, and also to provide policy recommendations to enhance legislation. How can we give law enforcement the power to be able to do more?

 

you know, how can we help them to intervene sooner before the harm happens rather than after the harm happens? So, as I said earlier, in that trauma, I just had an enormous sense of clarity and I could see what needed to happen. And I was on a mission, an absolute mission, I still am, to do what I can in Carly's name to really, you know, set young people up for positive experiences online rather than, you know,

 

them just having to try and negotiate and find their way through these spaces alone without the information, the resilience, the emotional intelligence that they need. we began with incorporating the Carly Ryan Foundation, went through all of those processes, registered as a harm prevention organization, and then we began with an education program for schools. So we created Project Connect.

 

and we started rolling it out in schools nationwide and that was a huge success and I think one of the reasons why it was is because here I was a mother going in with with volunteers and staff to present Carly's story to students but in a way that didn't terrify them more in a way of you know what happened to Carly is the worst case scenario but look at what you

 

Adam Firman (09:34.768)

very to protect yourself moving forward and how can you be advocates for Carly? And understanding that every choice you make online has a consequence, whether that be a positive or a negative consequence is really up to you in the way that you discover different places in this space and the protections you put in place to of, I guess, minimize the risk of being

 

approached inappropriately and if you are approached inappropriately what do you do about it? Where do you report? Well what I didn't realize was you know really Carly became the connector. This Carly story really connected students to us and because I was her mother all of a sudden we started getting an enormous amount of disclosures and you know that led on to then connecting children to obviously

 

law enforcement and then as we went on I advised on the legislation to open the Office of the East Safety Commissioner in Australia and then of course help to advise on resources for the office and you know was then able to connect the community to the Office of the East Safety Commissioner and then we went on to establish the Australian Centre to Counter-Counted Wild Exploitation so then I was able to obviously you know connect community to the ACE.

 

And at the opening of the Australian Centre to Counter Child Exploitation, I presented the team with Carly's quilt made with her clothing to hang in the ACE. Just as a constant reminder for investigators as they walk through the doors that their hearts will be lifted and they'll be reminded how important their work is, that they're strengthened by it. And so, you know, for me, I've always had such a great admiration for law enforcement in this area.

 

And, you know, through the investigation, through, you know, what unfolded with what happened with Carly, I was able to gain some really wonderful connections with law enforcement and then began to see some of the things that they were lacking that they needed and then started to go into some advocacy support for law enforcement as well. So, you know, it's pretty multi-layered what we're doing at her foundation, but

 

Adam Firman (12:02.072)

essentially education, know, supporting law enforcement, advising on policy, and then of course on many advisory groups now, not only in Australia but now globally. That's amazing and inspiring how you started this from a place of myself and

 

I should imagine every single listener could never imagine to find themselves and to find the strength to do what you've done is so admirable. Do you think the internet at the time, because it exploded, you and I can both remember when smartphones first hit and given access, you think, because we all know that countries across the globe, they're slow to react with legislation, it takes time, it has to go through so many processes and the internet, it was borderless.

 

It didn't wait for those legislations to be in place. And I have to hold my tip, my hat to Australia, because I feel that Australia now is one of the leading sort of countries really with putting age restrictions and sort of those. And I'm sure that you may say that, you know, that you've sat on some of those boards to put those restrictions in place. But what do you think was missing at the time that was not there to protect your daughter at that time?

 

I mean, there was just no education, no awareness whatsoever. know, kids were given computers to do their homework, you know, after school, access to the internet and there was no guidance at all. There was no guidance for children. There was no guidance for parents. And, you know, the internet just kind of took off when smartphones came in. Well, of course, you know, it just launched and

 

technology just continued to evolve. And I think looking back, the mistake that we made was not putting in safeguards then, not looking at age restriction or the way for social media back then. So the internet kind of took off. And, you know, I think governments can be very, they sort of have a tendency to react rather than put more efforts into prevention. And so,

 

Adam Firman (14:21.581)

you know, I was really pushing for prevention for, you know, let's grab the child by the hand before they fall in the river, not pull them out the other end, so to speak. so, you know, it's disappointing that it's taken so long. But I will say that I'm also extremely proud to represent Australia at a global level, because I really do think that legislators, you know,

 

ministers and representatives are really understanding the awful dangers of this space for young people and are putting in safeguards and are introducing legislation to try and minimize those risks. What I want to see is the regulation of social media companies, the regulation of big tech, because they've just been left to do whatever they want for years and years. And the cost has been the loss of our children. It's not just Carly, there's many others.

 

many hundreds of thousands around the world that have lost their lives for various different reasons. And I think Big Tech has a lot to answer for. And we know, you know, from being on many advisory groups and being at so many conferences and sort of, guess, being at the Big Tech hearing in Congress in the US, when Congress questioned Big Tech, I was there right on front row.

 

you know, from my experience, you know, their focus is profit and privacy. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, how much are they making off of each child? You know, they have a lot to answer for in relation to the algorithms, the endless scroll that has children becoming addicted to their platforms. You know, they're designed to be addictive and, you know, it's causing a lot of mental health distress in young people for various different reasons. And,

 

And I think that we're long overdue for putting safeguards in place for our kids. And I think we're very long overdue in relation to regulating social media. I just think that, you know, looking back, we should have had government absolutely push for safety by design way back then and regulate social media companies. Again, the government seemed to react rather than focus on prevention.

 

Adam Firman (16:44.408)

and the internet kind of took off and there was no I guess guard rails put in place. There were no protections put in place and now I agree Australia is leading the way and it's wonderful to see and I'm so incredibly proud to represent Australia through my international advocacy work and you know ministers seem to be so much more open to

 

understanding the preventative nature of the foundation's work and understanding you know where I'm coming from and trying to look at the bigger picture. so I just wish you know obviously it's it's easy to look back and say well this is what we should have done but I I really do wish that governments had a little bit more foresight you know then.

 

and looking at sort of regulating these companies sooner, which would have prevented the loss of a lot of our children. mean, a lot of children have lost their lives for various different reasons, various different crime types online. And you know, from child-light's latest research, over 350 million children are exploited online every year. So it's a real pandemic in itself. And I think governments just underestimated what was coming.

 

You know, there was just no understanding of how huge this would become. And especially with the creation of smartphones, what that gave our children access to, you know, we gave our children access to connection and to education and to good things, but it also gave access for criminals to be able to deceive and manipulate children into doing things that they would never normally do.

 

And we know that criminals look for vulnerabilities in a child's life and try and fill those gaps. you know, so I think, you know, now we have the opportunity to look at regulating social media companies, Big Tech. You know, I was part of the Congress hearing in the US in Washington that were questioning Big Tech and their failings in protecting children. I was right there front row on Carly's birthday.

 

Adam Firman (19:08.492)

strangely, with so many other parents that have lost their children. And it was very moving and very powerful. And what is going to come from that at a global level? And I just think big tech has gotten away with exploiting our children for long enough for their own profit. And they're dismantling their safety teams. And what is happening? Why do we need to do something?

 

Yeah, you'll be well aware Sonia that a lot of what holds law enforcement back and governments and legislation all boils down to budget and you made a good point earlier about that.

 

We need to be in a preventative space here rather than reactive. However, to be preventative costs money and budget is the biggest factor, like I just said, and sometimes police organizations to put preventative measures in takes money, which they don't have. And this is where social media giants need to be funding those avenues rather than the taxpayers.

 

And I look back to my police and career and I remember we had a boss at the time tried to change our shift pattern. So this was when I was a frontline police officer and he had done some research to show that there wasn't many incidents that took place between the hours of 4 a.m. to 7 a.m. So he put a new shift pattern in that cut down officer numbers during those hours and he was doing it on statistics of how many calls were coming into the police at the time.

 

what we found is it didn't work because there was a lot of sort of after effects of dealing with the events prior to those hours and it's just law enforcement is such a hard area to budget for and The preventative side is a high cost but surely it's a cost worth paying and like I said I don't feel it's on the taxpayer. I feel it's on

 

Adam Firman (21:22.72)

It's no different to say Mackeys or McDonald's, for example. They probably pay higher tax because it's likely that they're going to cause trash on our streets. So why shouldn't they pick up the cost of adding to that risk as you are? So surely the same should be for these social media and tech giants? Yeah, and I mean, you've got to remember too that prevention reduces long-term costs to society.

 

It's in the numbers, we know this. the financial health and justice system costs for exploitation are enormous. From mental health treatment to police investigations to court proceedings, know, really prevention programs are far more cost effective than responding after the crime has already taken place. You know, we know this, we've looked at the numbers.

 

And so it makes sense for government to invest in prevention and to provide law enforcement with the tech they need to fight this crime type. You we don't have enough law enforcement on the ground. They're overworked, understaffed and, you know, they often don't have what they need to effectively investigate these cases. So, you know, with

 

Having to deal with such a pandemic in relation to how many children are being exploited every year, even just in Australia, this should be an absolute priority for governments to make sure that law enforcement are adequately funded and that also organizations like ours are funded to provide training for law enforcement. Because then we know 100 % of that funding goes to law enforcement.

 

You know, we know that the federal government disseminates funding to each state. Then, of course, the police commissioners of each state have the power to disseminate where that funding goes into what areas. And we just need to be sure that that funding is going to, you know, the jackets, the AFP, know, various different investigators that are dealing in this crime type. And that's really what I'm advocating for right now.

 

Adam Firman (23:39.056)

We just had a round table in parliament just recently. And, you know, it's really disturbing to me, you know, what law enforcement has to face, what they need to view in relation to each investigation. And they often have to view video of child abuse over and over and over again, frame by frame. You know, where is support for our officers? And, you know, where is the budget for the tools that they need to minimize that harm?

 

you know, through the process of investigation. And so really, you know, coming back to prevention, you know, we really need to understand, we need governments to understand that online child exploitation causes lifelong trauma that's impossible to fully repair. Once the abuse happens, no amount of intervention can undo the harm. So prevention ensures fewer children are victimized in the first place. You know, we need to strengthen community resilience.

 

You know, prevention empowers parents, it empowers carers, educators and kids, you know, and really gives the foundation the tools to recognize, know, help give the community tools to recognize the risks, report early warning signs and build safer online habits. you know, we also need to be looking at disrupting offender behavior. You know, it includes early intervention with potential offenders.

 

to stop exploitation before it escalates, really. And we need to make sure that we have those strong prevention frameworks to make it harder for predators to find opportunities to groom or exploit children online. Keeping up with fast-paced moving technology. There's just so much that needs to be done. And that's why I'm still sitting here with you today, still in the work. After so many years, I lost Carling and

 

In 2007, we've done so much, but I cannot stop. There's so much to do. You know, and really, we're so focused as a foundation on prevention because it saves lives, reduces harms and makes better economic and social sense than only a, you know, a response after the fact. So, you know, I just I really am pushing government to do more in that prevention space and

 

Adam Firman (26:03.948)

Yeah, I know a lot of people are behind me in that as well. Yeah. And you've mentioned that several times around the education side. And I don't know if you're aware, I had Jen Hoey on who is also from Australia, her daughter was groomed online and she set up a foundation called Not My Kid, because generally most parents do not think that it's going to affect their kids. So her daughter suffered and she now

 

uses her daughter's story with her daughter's permission to help educate parents and the sort of wider community and it's education is at the key of that prevention stage. Absolutely and you know that's what we really started with when I first incorporated Carly's legacy and we were on the ground in schools with students you know and you know

 

We've done so much work with kids. Our children are growing up online. And without that guidance, I might not recognize harmful behaviors like grooming, coercion, scams, exploitation. So we have to get in and start educating them really early on and really empower them, provide them with the ability to put in those protective behaviors.

 

to know what to look out for and build resilience, emotional intelligence, and give them those reporting mechanisms. And that support, because they're kids, they're growing up, you know? And they're growing up online and they're losing often the ability to communicate in life. They're losing the ability to do the simplest of things like make a phone call to make an appointment. You know, they're losing...

 

a lot of ability to exist in the real world in a healthy manner. And so really, I would love to see free mental health support for all children, zero to 18, in Australia, and really building those protective behaviors very early on. And of course, now we have the age restrictions bill coming into place in December, which is an absolute wonderful thing. But

 

Adam Firman (28:23.689)

Where's government investment to help our addicted generation deal with those restrictions? Yeah. You know, we're seeing this as the delay and a delay is a good thing, but we still need to educate them for when they do get online. And we also need to provide the community with the ability to be able to know what to do when their children come off of those services, because again, we're too late. This should have been done a long.

 

time ago, so now we're dealing with a whole generation of addicted children that literally can't exist without picking up their phone every five seconds, you know, they just get riddled with anxiety and there are so many children approaching our foundation at the moment so anxious about the social media age restrictions coming into play. So we've developed a pilot for a social media transition program and we're really hoping that we can get funding for that from the federal government to support

 

the community. Now, no, we have the Office of the eSafety Commissioner and they're stepping up to do a lot, but they're still a government agency. They're not on the ground with children. And I think the Foundation has always been that bridge between community and government agencies. So, you know, we really want to, you know, be there for young people, but also listen to what they need and provide them with the things that they require to be able to, you know, have a healthy

 

experience online and also to be able to manage screen time. Yeah, but as an outsider Sonia that that's really shocking. I hadn't even considered that angle of the addiction of suddenly taken away. I hadn't even considered that. I just saw the positives in the legislation. Yeah, so again we're going to have a fallout and then the government will be scrambling to find an answer, you know, and the same goes with, you know,

 

the failings in the working with children checks, the horrific things that have happened in our country in relation to child abuse and childcare centers. You know, why weren't these safeguards put in place earlier? How is it possible for someone to have a working with children check in one state, know, lose it and then just go to another state and get get it, another one? Why isn't this, why isn't this, you know, national collaboration in relation to working with children checks and a whole range of other things? So again, it comes back to

 

Adam Firman (30:50.111)

We're dealing with the fact once the horror has happened. So, you know, are we going to be losing children, you know, because literally they can't access their lifelines on their social media. You know, we need to give them the ability to be able to connect to other ways of communicating. And I think really parents need to look at too, how were they communicating during COVID?

 

A lot of kids were using Zoom and FaceTime and things like that to be able to talk to one another. So really looking back at what we were doing to connect and stay connected with one another through those times where we couldn't see each other face to face. So there's so many things that young people can do to really support their kids.

 

through that social media transition. And just for parents to realize that social media often feels like their whole world. So we wanna provide parents with the dialogue they can use to help them to keep communication open, to help their kids strengthen offline friendships, to build new routines and replace gaps and really to teach coping skills for anxiety.

 

and you know, encourage healthy digital alternatives, you know, having the government invest in sporting programs, in, you know, other things that young people can be doing and also teaching our parents to be role models. So, you know, if parents have balanced tech use and kids notice, they watch what you're doing. And if you're on your phone constantly, it's gonna be really hard for them to not want to be on their devices.

 

and staying alert for signs of struggles as well for young people. So whilst I completely agree with the social media age restrictions bill and the delay, absolutely 100%. I think it was a little rushed. And I think when the government hasn't considered investing in support for the community in relation to

 

Adam Firman (33:13.941)

you know, this bill coming into place very, very soon. So, you know, we need to provide families with closed messaging and communication tools so that their kids can still connect with one another. They can still access each other, but without being on platforms where they can become, you know, victims of crime through those who seek to harm them. And you've obviously worked extremely closely with families and young people and

 

and all the way up to policymakers. What do you feel today is the biggest online safety challenges that our children face today? Is it that open, unrestricted nature? Yes, I believe so. And not any one app is worse than another. You know, because often parents will come to us and say, well, which app is the worst? You know, well, they're all potentially bad if they have, you know, the ability to communicate with strangers online. They have the potential to be harmful.

 

So, you know, it's more about making sure that you know what apps your kids are using, make sure that the privacy settings are on so that children, you know, are not receiving, you know, messages from strange people. And also again, teaching children the tactics that criminals use to access them. And so then they're better prepared and know what to do. But most importantly, talking to young people about the fact that if something does happen,

 

something happens online where their gut is telling them something's up or they're faced with something that frightens them that they don't know how to handle it to speak up and also talking to parents about how they handle that so being able to go to their kids and say hey it's great that you're connecting with friends but I really

 

you know, want you to be mindful of your safety and the safety of our family. And if anything ever happens, please come to me and talk to me. We're not going to shut the internet off. We're going to discuss this together. And if I don't know what to do, then we're going to go to somebody who can, like the Carly Ryan Foundation, like the e-Safety Office, like the Australian Centre to Counter Child Exploitation. We're going to go to resources to be able to find a solution and we'll work through this together. So a lot of this has got to do with

 

Adam Firman (35:31.273)

You know, parents not knowing how to talk to their kids effectively often without the kids getting defensive and shutting down. And then also young people not realizing that at the end of the day, when it comes to their safety, you know, they must put that ahead of anything else and not underestimate the ability of a criminal who spends their waking hours finding ways to coerce and harm children.

 

Carly's law has been a landmark achievement with the impacts you have made. And you've touched on this already, but what role do you think these big, giant technology companies should be playing in safeguarding children online? And are they doing enough, Sonia? Absolutely not. They've never done enough. Again, their focus is profit and privacy. It always has been, it always will be. They're huge companies making

 

ridiculous amounts of money off the backs of vulnerable kids and community. And, you know, I want to see them having adequate safety teams to make sure that they're designing their platforms with safety by design, to have, you know, age assurance technologies within their platforms, you know, to minimize the ability for criminals to better access underage children.

 

And again, invest in education programs, to invest in things. What we see at the moment is we'll see them contributing to child protection conferences. Well, that's their kind of way of trying to show that they're doing something. It's really their way of, I think, silencing people. Yeah.

 

really at the end of the day, let's be seen to be throwing our money out there to child protection events and things like that. But ultimately at the end of the day, what are they actually doing? And they're just providing platforms and the ability, especially with end-to-end encryption and certain platforms that minimize the ability for...

 

Adam Firman (37:53.185)

for law enforcement to able to access information for criminal investigation or delaying the process of giving information to investigators. Meanwhile, a child is continuing to be abused. you know, and the other thing I really want to see is technology given to law enforcement to be able to access information from a criminal's device sooner. And an example of that, I was speaking to an officer at a recent conference and there is technology that exists.

 

that allows an officer to access the code of an offender's phone very quickly within seconds. Now, previously, of course, it can sometimes take months for investigators to access an offender's phone for evidence. Now, in the meantime, a child is continuing to be offended against. So if the technology exists for law enforcement to be able to access a criminal's phone within seconds,

 

where is the funding for that technology and why isn't it in the hands of law enforcement? Yeah. You know, so that's just one example where I think we can do better. And, you know, I think government really need to make this a priority. And I actually brought this up in my meeting with the current Attorney General, Federal Attorney General. And, you know, hopefully we were able to get some

 

kind of support for law enforcement moving forward. I'm just gonna keep on pushing for that. That's particularly in relation to tech for them and also support for them and getting more seats on those chairs in those investigations so that we're not having four officers looking after an enormous area and just being so unindated with...

 

with reports that they have to pick and choose which ones they do and the others are just sort of left hanging in the background because they literally don't have the manpower to be able to do them all. And that's a huge failing in relation to, you know, our children. you know, where's the government addressing this? And there have been systems that have been put in place, Project Vic, for example, and

 

Adam Firman (40:15.209)

work being done by the Child Rescue Coalition and other agencies. And if you recall, and I've spoken about this on the podcast before, but Apple sort of came forward and said that they were going to start scanning users iCloud libraries for child abuse material. they suddenly did a huge U-turn, clearly once it sort of hinted that it was going to affect profit, in my opinion. How do you feel that

 

technology companies like this and not being how to account by governments when we know they have the technology to detect and deter this this sort of crime from taking place. It's absolutely appalling. and you know when when a government's gonna wake up to the fact that big tech has just got one over all of us. You know and they they just you know it's it's so frustrating.

 

for me because I've been in this area for many many years and I've watched the foreshadowing and the techniques that they use and it's just appalling and as I said the result is a loss of many thousands of children every year you know I mean it's just inexcusable to put profit ahead of the safety of innocent children, children whom are the future of our country.

 

And if we have generations of traumatized children and children with riddling anxiety from being addicted to their devices and a range of other things, what does our future look like? And so again, it's coming back, looking at the bigger picture here, looking at prevention, looking at what we can do.

 

to safeguard future generations and to prevent children from being harmed in the first place. Where is investment from big tech in their safety teams? Instead, they're dismantling their safety teams. So who's going to hold them accountable? And they just push their way through with their extraordinary amounts of money and lawyers.

 

Adam Firman (42:34.343)

use various different tactics to be able to, you know, be able to keep on operating. At the end of the day, and I've said it over and over again, government needs to regulate social media companies. And they need to be sure that safety by design is introduced into all platforms. And thankfully we have a wonderful e-safety commissioner, Gillian McGrant, who is just a champion at the moment in doing what she can to introduce new codes.

 

and do what's needed to be done for a very, very long time. So I support the work of the Air Safety Office 100 % and totally behind Julie in her efforts. And it's really commendable. Thankfully we have her in this position. So I think we've got a long way to go. There's so much to do and there's so many different layers to this.

 

And I just really want to see government have more focus on prevention. And really, at the end of the day, as I said earlier, it reduces cost. It reduces cost to the federal budget. so why that's not being recognized, I don't know. And I mean, it might be the same in relation to Carly's law. When I first introduced Carly's law, put it forward as proposed legislation.

 

We had so many committee hearings, the government couldn't quite understand, ministers couldn't quite understand the concept of Carly's law, bring preventative legislation rather than reactive legislation. And it took a while for the penny to drop, but when it did, the legislation moved through very quickly. You know, the idea of being able to stop an offender before they harmed a child, you know, and

 

Essentially, Carly's law is really like gateway law. It allows law enforcement to get in the door, arrest an offender before they go and meet with the child, particularly the offender falsifying their age and identity. And law enforcement have come back to us and said, you know, the great thing about it is gets us in the door, we can make the arrest, well then what happens? They are able to retrieve terabytes and terabytes of child abuse material on computers.

 

Adam Firman (44:55.059)

and other paraphernalia, then they lay additional charges on top of Carly's law. But what it does is it prevents that crime from happening in the first place. So that was the whole premise behind Carly's law and why other countries are interested in it too and why I'm in America. And I'm pleased you raised the work that Judy's doing. She's working internationally from

 

what I can see from the outside and say she's clearly doing some amazing work and. Yes, she's wonderful. If I was to give you and Julie a magic pot of unlimited resources, what would be your first priority in protecting children online? Regulate social media companies, big tech. Be sure they have age assurance technologies within their platforms. You know, provide a better system for.

 

them sharing information with law enforcement to be able to, you know, prevent a child from continuing to be abused while law enforcement are waiting for the information they need from these companies. I would fund law enforcement at a national level. Every child exploitation team would receive everything they need and more, including all the tech that they needed and training.

 

and provide the community with free mental health support for their children. At the moment, the issue is that children become traumatized from an event that's happened online. Well, they have to go on a waiting list to get treatment. They're already traumatized and sometimes they have to wait up to six months to get in to see somebody. I would overhaul the child protection system in Australia.

 

No. I will also overrule the sentencing and inadequacies in Australia for crimes against children. And I can keep on going. There's a lot I'd do very, very quickly. But the community would be at the forefront of my focus. Yeah. Support for the community, support for children. To be in a position of government is a huge responsibility.

 

Adam Firman (47:18.219)

And really, I think that comes with, you've got to have connection to community. You're literally being paid to work for the people. So now we just need to see more of that. We need to be seeing more of a focus on what does the community need? What are they asking for? What do young people need? What are they asking for? What's law enforcement need? What are they asking for?

 

really focusing on those things, which would just be such a game changer in our country. And again, you know, look, I'm really proud again of representing Australia at an international level at various different events and working with, you know, government in the US and talking about the wonderful bills and legislation that we're moving forward in relation to deep fakes and all.

 

so many other things and the world is watching the social media age restrictions bill or the delay to see what's going to unfold and I really commend the Australian government for doing so much but there's still so much more to do and my hope is that through

 

my advocacy work through advocacy work of others in our country that are doing wonderful work, other organizations that I work with all the time that are just fantastic, that together we can be one voice and we can really, you know, continue to make changes that are effective. Yeah. And...

 

I'll summarize really that the work of holding sort of social media and sort of these people responsible for sort of age verification and we do it in every other now Avenue of life. We restrict what age people can drive. We restrict what age they can purchase alcohol. Yeah. And we do it for a reason. So surely the same legislation should be in place for a dangerous piece of material like social media.

 

Adam Firman (49:29.599)

because it is a dangerous weapon. Yeah and I mean it was always intended at the beginning to provide communication for people you know people traveling overseas staying in touch with their family but what nobody thought about was how can a criminal use these platforms to harm others and there is so many scams and so much child exploitation and so much harm on these platforms.

 

And why those safeguards weren't put in place at the very beginning, have no idea. All I can put it down to again is coming back to the focus being profit. You know, as long as we're making our trillions of dollars, who cares about the bunch of kids we lose and whoever else, you know, is harmed, we'll figure it out along the way. Instead, it should have been, okay, how can we design our platforms with safety in mind? How can we protect young users? Because inevitably they're going to access our

 

our services and what can we do to prevent the loss of our kids in these spaces and also be able to support law enforcement in investigation, making it a priority. And that just hasn't been. And we continue to fight this. But we really need government support.

 

you know, with these large companies, you know, we really need the federal government to step up and say enough is enough. We've let you just have a free run over a decade. We are now putting in regulation. That's the only way forward, in my opinion. Sonia, I just want to say thank you for joining us today and for sharing both your personal and professional journey in this sort of world. Your courage and commitment have already saved countless young lives.

 

I have no doubt and I know our listeners are going to be inspired to take action in their own communities. And for those listeners, anyone who would like to reach out to Sonia and see the amazing work that the Carly Ryan Foundation has done and is continues to do so, I will put links in the show notes to the Carly Ryan Foundation and I'll also put links in to how you can connect with Sonia. But Sonia, once again, thank you very much for taking the time.

 

Adam Firman (51:47.765)

to educate me and to educate our listeners. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. And I hope that together we can continue to put children at the front of all of the work that we're doing, hear their voices and protect as many as we can. And certainly again, I do this in my daughter's honor, through her legacy and the work really is.

 

comes down to the power of that connection and the power of love between myself and Carly. And I hope that listeners can understand that and feel that the motivation is pure care and for young people and genuinely wanting to see them have positive experiences online and genuinely wanting to prevent harm against those who need our protection the most. So thank you for having me. It's been an absolute honor. Thank you, Sonia.