In this episode, Claire Chennells shares her journey into digital forensics and reflects on more than 15 years working across law enforcement and the private sector. We discuss how the profession has evolved, the growing complexity of mobile device investigations, the importance of effective training, and why supporting the wellbeing of digital forensic professionals is just as important as developing technical capability. If you want to stay up to date with the latest in DFIR, don’t miss an episode!
Discover how digital forensics has evolved over the past decade as Claire Chennells shares insights into mobile forensics, investigator training, career development, and the future of the profession.
Digital forensics has transformed dramatically over the last decade. With increasingly sophisticated smartphones, stronger encryption, and an explosion in digital evidence, investigators face more challenges than ever before. In this episode, Claire Chennells reflects on her career, sharing valuable lessons from both policing and the private sector while exploring where digital forensics is heading next.
Claire’s route into digital forensics wasn’t planned. Originally interested in IT, she discovered an opportunity to become a mobile phone examiner while working in police recruitment. That unexpected opportunity launched a career that has spanned more than 15 years.
Her advice is simple: enthusiasm and a willingness to learn can open doors that you never expected.
The biggest change Claire has witnessed is the extraordinary growth in data available from modern mobile devices.
Early examinations often involved relatively simple handsets with limited information. Today, investigators must contend with encrypted smartphones, cloud services, messaging applications, and an ever-growing ecosystem of digital evidence.
Success now depends on continuously adapting techniques and embracing new technologies to meet evolving investigative challenges.
Beyond conducting examinations, Claire has dedicated much of her career to developing others.
Training investigators requires more than teaching software or extraction techniques. It involves helping officers understand how to correctly interpret evidence while appreciating the risks of drawing incorrect conclusions.
Providing that balance between confidence and caution is one of the most important responsibilities of any digital forensic trainer.
Claire also discusses the transition from policing into the private sector.
While investigations remain technically demanding, the commercial environment often provides greater opportunity to explore problems in depth and contribute to product development and innovation.
The move highlighted how different environments can offer valuable but very different experiences for forensic professionals.
Technical skills are only part of the profession.
Recognizing the emotional demands placed on investigators, Claire has helped establish corporate digital forensics working group to encourage collaboration, knowledge sharing, and peer support.
Creating an environment where professionals can openly discuss challenges helps strengthen both individuals and the wider forensic community.
Connect with MSAB on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/micro-systemation/?viewAsMember=true, Twitter (X) – https://x.com/MSAB_XRY and BlueSky - https://bsky.app/profile/msabcom.bsky.social
Guest links
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-chennells-7ab923207/
Adam Firman (00:01.102)
So hello and welcome to episode 28 of Forensic Fix, a podcast brought to you by MSAB, where we invite guests from across the digital forensics and investigations community to discuss the latest developments in DFIR, current industry challenges, and everything happening in the world of digital investigations. So I'm your host, Adam Firman. I'm currently the global deputy director of tech sales here with MSAB. So today's guest is someone some of our listeners may already know.
but I'm delighted to welcome Claire Chennells, who has spent over 15 years working in digital forensics. Like many, she began her career within UK law enforcement before moving into the private sector. Now, throughout that time, she's worked across mobile device examinations, digital investigations, training, and generally helping organizations to develop their forensic capability. Claire has built a reputation as someone who combines deep technical knowledge
with a genuine passion for supporting others within our profession. She's also become a familiar voice on LinkedIn, sharing honest insights into life as a forensic examiner, the challenges we face and how our industry continues to evolve. Claire, welcome to Forensic Fix.
Claire Chennells (01:15.716)
Thank you so much, Adam. That was a really lovely introduction. I'm smiling away as you're introducing, so thank you. It's really lovely to be joining you. I'm a big Forensic Fix fan, so it's an absolute joy to be here. Thank you.
Adam Firman (01:18.026)
No
Adam Firman (01:29.326)
We're delighted to have you on board. And I've given our listeners a very brief overview of your career, but could you tell us your own story? How did you first find yourself working in digital forensics and what has made you want to stay in it?
Claire Chennells (01:43.472)
Sure. So if I start right back at the beginning in terms of sort of education, I started off at college and university studying IT. So I've always had a bit of an interest in tech. But also, if I'm honest, I actually wanted to be a hairdresser probably initially, but it was actually my dad that steered me into tech because I think he could see back then the world was growing in that way. And I find myself back then
kind of being the only girl as well in a lot of those classes. So it was very male heavy in college and university. I think I was about probably one or two girls in the class, but I just loved it. I loved computing. I just had such an interest in it. I then moved across to the police and I actually started off in the recruitment department. And at that stage I was recruiting police officers and
I kept seeing this job being advertised for a digital forensic mobile phone examiner. And it's not something I'd heard of before. So I'm talking, I'm going to show my age here, but I'm talking back in sort of the 2009 era. I had no idea what that was. But I was like, that sounds really interesting. I'd like, I'd love to know a bit more about that. I saw it a couple of times and the first time I sort of dismissed it. And then the second time I was like, well, I've got no harm in asking. I always think if you can show.
Adam Firman (02:48.524)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (03:08.972)
enthusiasm or maybe reach out to the team. I think that's always, it always goes down well. So I did, I reached out to the team and said, Hey, like, I don't know what this is, but I'm really interested to hear a bit more. So I was invited to go over to the team and found out about what's involved, what kind of, what that even means in terms of like the forensic part of it. So I had a day over there and I was fascinated. I was like, wow, this is
Adam Firman (03:10.295)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (03:37.071)
This is really interesting. This is really up my street. So I applied, got the job and I didn't look back. I absolutely loved it. I started off, and you remember the days of the simple phones, the blissful days where things were a little bit easier. But I found myself in this team and as I was learning and evolving, I just wanted more. I wanted to learn more technical skills and learn about how all the phones worked. And back then it was a
Adam Firman (03:50.381)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (04:00.291)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (04:06.168)
a big variation of the different types of phones. So I started off as an examiner and then I sort of moved on to more like the analytical side of things. So sort of more in depth complex jobs. I found myself also enjoying like the training aspect of it as well. So, you know, when new members of the team came in, I just really enjoy helping people and sort of sharing, you know, it's what it's about, isn't it? It's about sharing what you know and...
Adam Firman (04:23.213)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (04:31.98)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (04:33.882)
That's why find the digital forensics community to be great. We're all really friendly people and like to sort of share knowledge. So I went on and helped with training police officers for sort of effectively the triage aspects on division. So I did a lot of training with that, spent a lot of time with police officers and wanting to not only train how to use the tools, but then effectively.
Adam Firman (04:47.405)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (04:58.906)
how they can interpret the data on division as well. So, you they're very busy people, you know, and it's about trying to find the best practices for finding the evidence. So I'd spend a lot of time with people, then showing them how to open the report and understand how to interpret the data and how to, you know, best find the findings. So I did that for a fair few years. In that time, I had a daughter, went on maternity leave and came back where
Adam Firman (05:15.651)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (05:27.728)
My mindset changed slightly in terms of what I was willing to work on as you do as you become a parent. So it got back into my flame again. And then I decided to move across to Sky where I've been for the last five years. And again, that's been completely different in terms of like learning different aspects. I had to learn more about computer forensics, which is definitely a little bit of my comfort zone. I'm still through and through mobile phones. That's where my passion is.
Adam Firman (05:53.016)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (05:56.785)
but I had to learn more about other devices and computers. So again, it's been a lot more learning really and learning other ways of working. And yeah, no, it's been a nice change and yeah, like I say, on other skills.
Adam Firman (06:11.756)
Yeah. And how would you say forensics has changed looking back to the start to now?
Claire Chennells (06:21.104)
Gosh, it's changed a lot, hasn't it? I just, I remember the days of having, when I could do quite a few mobile phones in one day and you'd have a mobile phone where you could just extract 20 text messages from SIM cards and print off your little paper report, which was great. And then you had to adapt to then perhaps moving across to the DVD. I mean, the sheer volume of data now is just insane, isn't it? I mean,
Adam Firman (06:35.309)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (06:47.587)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (06:48.484)
the amount of data that comes off. And I think over time it's been about how you adapt to report on your findings compared to what it was then. The complexities with encryption, trying to access certain things, applications. I mean, you've of gone through the whole evolution of mobile phones really in that time where you're starting off with sort of the lower end phones, your burner phones, moving across to what we have today.
Adam Firman (06:55.085)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (07:08.674)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (07:16.996)
The two don't compare really. It's just so vast. But the challenges are different and it's about adapting, right? You've just got to keep learning with the times and just know that you've got to keep looking for new ways, new solutions, new ways of working.
Adam Firman (07:23.384)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (07:29.58)
Yeah. And you hit on a very good point about training sort of police officers, investigators to understand data, because I was the same as you. remember pushing out printouts of phone extractions because you could. But then we found that we sort of it was almost there. And I think I presented on this at a conference. It's quite dangerous because you then give people the tools to interpret data. And if you don't give them guidance,
Claire Chennells (07:38.704)
Hmm.
Claire Chennells (07:43.568)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (07:57.346)
Mmm... Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (07:58.711)
you end up being called to court because they've reported on artifacts that we as examiners would have never done that. How did you find getting that right balance of how much you give them?
Claire Chennells (08:06.455)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (08:10.754)
It's difficult, isn't it? Because you want to empower them in having the understanding and knowledge and trusting that they're getting it right. But there was always that nervous part of me that was like, wanted to hold their hand a little bit more with what it is. You don't want to set them up to fail. You don't want to be giving them the tools and then not. mean, let's face it, it takes a long time to train being a digital forensic examiner. There's a lot involved and a lot of experience because you know, it's not only the training, it's on hand experience. You come across the difficulties and
Adam Firman (08:21.454)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (08:38.935)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (08:40.464)
and learning, you're forever adapting how you write your findings and you're reporting on things. But when you're training police officers, there's only a very small window of time that you can have them for to train. So yeah, I just was always like, I'm at the end of the phone. If you need me, then let's talk it through. Because I just felt concerned that I just, and also missing vital evidence as well. That was another of my concern. was like, if they don't know how to open
Adam Firman (08:51.533)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (08:57.176)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (09:05.815)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (09:10.032)
the report correctly or know where to look in the first place, that's a problem. So it would be a question of, okay, you've had the training, but now let's look at it in this way. Because it's just, I was so fearful of things being missed. That was my main thing. I think it was the missing of it that worried me.
Adam Firman (09:15.395)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (09:23.83)
Yeah, yeah. But forensic labs, we had no choice, did we? Because we were no longer getting the simple burner phones where you could do several in a day. You know, we had to empower people because there was no choice. But I was the same as you. I always had that fear of if they miss something, then as a team, we should be responsible for that.
Claire Chennells (09:30.512)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (09:38.564)
Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (09:44.208)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (09:47.823)
Absolutely. Yeah, I felt that it was my job to be that voice within that team that can help because if I'm not helping, then who else will? you think about the victims as well. That for me was my biggest push. was like, there's victims out there that need their justice and we just have to fulfill in the best way that we can. And if that means having that extra help and support where officers needed it, then...
Adam Firman (09:59.107)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (10:07.406)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (10:15.12)
that's what's needed. They're busy people. This is a skill that they were doing in and around their day-to-day job. Some of them maybe didn't necessarily want to do it either. It's where their sergeant or inspector had pushed them into it. You had some which were really enthusiastic, which was great. We always liked to have enthusiastic person that wanted to be involved. But yeah, you can only do what you can do. It's any set number of hours in the day and it's just making the best of the situation really.
Adam Firman (10:22.382)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (10:26.83)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (10:34.53)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (10:42.594)
Yeah. And you've obviously spoken about that you've worked both in policing and now in the private sector. What would you say have been the biggest differences between those environments?
Claire Chennells (10:49.136)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (10:54.928)
Yeah, they're so different. did, I don't know for you how long it took, but it did take a long period of adjustment and not necessarily a bad one. They're both very different. Not paying for your T fund was the first like, wow, okay, I'd have to pay for a T fund here. Okay, that's good. But it was just, I would say what you're used to in the police, you are that sort of person within that that can, the data flow.
Adam Firman (11:08.087)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (11:12.366)
you
Claire Chennells (11:24.784)
You can feed things back easier to the teams, but in corporate it's different because obviously you're not in the police. So you're sort of an outsider assisting police in a different way. So there was times sort of restrictions. There was sort of sometimes restrictions around what we could use tooling wise. But then for me, like the crime type changed and the flow of work changed. So where you found yourself in a very busy DF unit in the police.
Adam Firman (11:24.952)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (11:53.841)
It's like a convey about you're constantly working through it under time pressures. Being corporate, the time pressures have come off. It's not as high pressured in terms of you can take some more time, not feel rushed, but actually do a really good job of it because you've got that time and really invest in the detail to make it a really good product at the end of it.
Adam Firman (11:55.885)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (12:12.078)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (12:18.384)
So yeah, it was a bit of adjusting. Yes, I'm only down to one crime type now overall. So I work on piracy work in Sky, but obviously the variety and the police was all crime types. So yeah, it's very different from that point of view. But yeah, and I would say in corporate, you learn a lot more as well. The overall business, you've got a lot more like project managing and...
Adam Firman (12:24.162)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (12:30.839)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (12:43.554)
learning how finances work where you don't necessarily get involved so much of that in the public sector. So there's other corporate skills you then learn alongside as well. So it opens up more opportunity.
Adam Firman (12:47.469)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (12:53.038)
Yeah, and you spoke about sort of the limitation of access to certain tools because you're now private sector. And one thing that you've, you've started this year, and my colleague Alex Coley attended, do you want to share details of that?
Claire Chennells (12:59.92)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (13:05.818)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (13:09.326)
Yeah. Yeah. So I set up this corporate digital forensics working group. I felt that it was something that maybe was missing in the industry. And the feedback I've had has been immense. The amount of people reaching out to me saying this is much needed, you you really need this in the industry. So it's been lovely. It's been great to sort of make contacts along the way. Really good conversations.
trying to address maybe some things that are not quite there. So for me, one of the big things would be mental health around sort of digital forensics. I believe there's probably, you know, we find it across the public sector, but also across the private, that there's probably more work that can be done. So by sort of setting up a forum for like-minded people to sort of learn from each other, talk about maybe struggles they're facing, can we look at
Adam Firman (13:44.643)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (14:07.418)
processes and see if they kind of work in the same way for each other. So basically just a place where we can all have conversation around ideas, support each other. So I'm looking to do a couple of virtual events a year. And then we just had our first in-person event. As you mentioned, Alex did a fantastic presentation for us. So just where we can come together, have some ideas, and kind of grow from there, really. So yeah, I'm really excited about it. I'm really hopeful that we can sort of build out.
on the group. yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (14:39.756)
perfect. And I have two people I know sort of in the mental health space. Once explore enforcement, she wasn't in forensics, but she understands the struggles of sort of investigations. So she'll be very good to put you in touch with Claire and Paul who is an ex practitioner. And yeah, he's doing a lot of work in that space. So I'll be sure to connect you guys. So because I, I know they'd like to be involved. And I will also
Claire Chennells (14:45.008)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (14:51.344)
Mmm. Mmm.
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (15:01.22)
Yeah, thank you. That would be wonderful.
Adam Firman (15:08.822)
As always, link out to Claire's LinkedIn profile in the podcast notes. So please reach out to Claire if you're interested in finding out more about those events.
Claire Chennells (15:18.744)
Absolutely, it good to hear from more people.
Adam Firman (15:21.326)
Because Claire and I discussed prior to starting recording, it's these sorts of events where you go and network and you discover new ways of working rather than be in a silo and do what you always do.
Claire Chennells (15:32.625)
Absolutely. There's nothing worse than thinking that people are sort of struggling alone. You know, it's a really good community in digital frenzy. It's like I've never come across somebody who's not been helpful or friendly or willing to offer advice. So it's just to know that you've got that support network if you need it and that you can reach out to people and people really like to share their knowledge. You know, it's nice to have that. So yeah, it's just a space I hope that people can benefit from.
Adam Firman (15:42.946)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (15:54.798)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (16:03.0)
brilliant. And we've sort of touched on how technology has changed and what skills do you look for now that you think makes a great forensic examiner?
Claire Chennells (16:16.816)
Do you know what, actually I love interviewing. I love looking for new people. I will never pretend to be the most technical person. I've always got by, but I look for other things within people as well. I would say people who are willing to look at problem solving, because that's got to be a big thing in digital forensics. You're constantly having to problem solve things. I remember the days and I
Adam Firman (16:41.325)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (16:45.872)
one of my colleagues and I still laugh about it, where you'll try something and it won't work and then you try again and it doesn't work. And you can keep doing the same thing over and over again and it doesn't work. And then the next occasion it just works. It's just no explanation for it. It just happens. So then with comms outpatients, having patients is probably a good skill. Good communications. So communications within the team itself, you have to rely.
Adam Firman (16:58.199)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (17:04.226)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (17:14.124)
upon your colleagues in this world. You can't isolate yourself, particularly when you are working with difficult material. You have to know that you can rely on the people around you. I remember when we worked on difficult cases, we all had our little areas that we would find difficult, but you knew you could lean on others to help you get through that. So if there's something I couldn't cope with looking at.
Adam Firman (17:15.491)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (17:33.378)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (17:40.529)
I knew there was somebody else in the office that might better help me view what it is that I was looking at. it's about communication and knowing that I like to see if people have got their own sort of interests, they've got coping mechanisms around them. I think that's quite important. People are never going to know what it's like to work in the work that we do until you're there. So yeah, I like to look at communication, team working.
Adam Firman (17:56.984)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (18:02.157)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (18:08.27)
the fact that they want to better best themselves all the time, like having enthusiasm. I like it when you can get the enthusiasm that come across from people. A bit like sort of how I did in the beginning, reached out to a team. If people reach out to me with sort of enthusiasm and got that kind of mind that interested in what it is they could progress in, that interests me when I see somebody who's kind of got that passion for things.
Adam Firman (18:23.939)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (18:34.96)
I've never lost my passion. I don't know about you, but I've never lost my passion for digital forensics. I I thought we'd do different line of work now, but I visited a lab this week and I just felt excited walking into their lab and sort of looking how they've got their setup. Like that still excites me. So whether we admit that we're geeks or not, in that process, it just, it really excites me. So I like to look for the same enthusiasm from somebody that they got that passion for technology.
Adam Firman (18:37.549)
No.
Adam Firman (18:47.0)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (18:50.936)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (19:01.133)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (19:04.176)
willingness to learn. So yeah, they're probably the things I would certainly be looking for in somebody. They don't have to be the most technical person in the world because you can learn that, right? It's having the right mindset to start with. You can teach people certain skills, but if they haven't got the mindset to start with, then that makes it difficult to adapt on that.
Adam Firman (19:17.634)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (19:22.252)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (19:28.462)
And if you you place yourself back if you could be the person on the other end of the phone when you rang What advice would you say to someone thinking about starting in digital forensics?
Claire Chennells (19:35.504)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (19:41.393)
It would probably just be along the lines of what is it you're looking for for your day to day? What is it you want to do day to day to achieve? For me, when I thought about it, when I thought about going for that job, the end result, I could potentially be helping people as victims. That to me sounded really rewarding. So what is it you want to get out of doing this job?
Adam Firman (20:04.568)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (20:11.084)
And for me, number one was I really want to help people. That's something that was really important to me. And also, you know, it opens up your world, doesn't it? If you go into something like digital forensics, there's a world of opportunity of different things that you can do. It's not just, you know, just mobiles. You've got the computers, like there's so much learning, you you never stop learning. So, yeah, I think.
Adam Firman (20:32.599)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (20:38.352)
you'd be thinking about what else can I do? Where can I grow? How can I develop? Yeah, and then primarily the helping aspect of it as well.
Adam Firman (20:47.328)
Yeah, and even so the forensic lab I worked in was a mixture of police officers and civilians. And even within that sort of scope, we all had our our specialisms. Like I, I was always sort of the phone, the heart, sort of the analyst side of things, working out what the tool hasn't passed. And then we we had another gentleman who he loved Linux, you know, we called him pseudo.
Claire Chennells (20:55.024)
Hmm.
Claire Chennells (21:01.146)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (21:09.04)
Mmm, mmm, yeah.
Claire Chennells (21:15.062)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (21:17.344)
And have you found that the same in like police and private?
Claire Chennells (21:19.926)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. know, sort of as I've already alluded to, I would admit that I'm never the most technical person. I had other people in my team that were far more technical than me. And that didn't bother me. That's fine. We all bring different things to the table. So if I was ever struggling with anything technical, I would absolutely lean on somebody else. I'd always like to try and learn it at the same time or learn from them. But I knew I had people that I could turn to.
Adam Firman (21:43.533)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (21:47.501)
I would say I was probably more the analytical minded. So for me, was, you know, you've got the extraction part, but then I far more enjoyed the analysis side of it. So I would look to try and develop all the time. How can I present my findings better? How can I break things up to make it easier for the person on the other end to interpret the data? I spent more time probably on that than I did sort of more the technical parts.
Adam Firman (21:58.125)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (22:07.938)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (22:14.712)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (22:15.266)
So I would always be trying to do like the pretty spreadsheets and you know, the forensic report and how do I refine my SFR? Like how can I make that? So, you know, I've got my findings at the top that's really obvious to the investigator, the other side of things. So we certainly all had our different skills within the team. I always favored iPhones. Like I was definitely, that was my comfortable place within the mobile phones. So yeah, we definitely had our different interests, but
Adam Firman (22:18.36)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (22:38.893)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (22:44.874)
It's having that good team where you know you can rely on other people and you can sort of say in a situation, okay, what do I need to do here? This is a bit different for me. You can't keep up with it all. There's so many variations of things, particularly when we're talking about applications and on top of the devices themselves and how they store data and where to find the data. That when you can have those open and honest conversations in the team, you pick things up from other people and that's okay. That's okay to not know it all.
Adam Firman (22:54.838)
No.
Adam Firman (23:10.797)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (23:14.116)
And I think that's a big lesson that I've learned over time that I can't know it all and that's okay. That there's too much, but I can try and do the best at the parts that I do. I believe I can do well at.
Adam Firman (23:19.533)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (23:26.966)
Yeah, and we've spoken about the sheer volume of data and how much people have to get through. So that leads naturally onto what's happening in this industry and that's AI. So it's probably the biggest talking point in technology, not just for digital forensics, but with technology right now from, from your perspective, where do you think AI is going to genuinely help digital investigations?
Claire Chennells (23:32.111)
Hmm.
Mm.
Claire Chennells (23:38.83)
Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (23:43.536)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (23:55.793)
It's an interesting one, isn't it, AI? And I'm finding people either love it or hate it at the moment. It's definitely a bit of a split in the room when it comes to people's thoughts on it. I personally like AI in terms of some of the things that it can do. And when I take that across to sort of digital forensics, like many others in the profession, I don't believe it's ever going to take over our job because we have to have the human element of what it is that we're doing.
Adam Firman (24:01.934)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (24:20.515)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (24:22.544)
I don't think I could ever trust an AI to completely get that right. So in my mind, it's not going to take over our job. Can it assist us in certain areas? Yes, I think it probably could. So for us, we've thought about could we use AI to perhaps summarize conversations? that aid us in, you know, it would all be verified still, but could it assist in?
Adam Firman (24:27.832)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (24:43.598)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (24:50.212)
sort of looking at a conversation and giving us a good snapshot summary of what it is that's been talked about. Could it perhaps go over images and give us like an overview of what's happening in those videos or images? So I think there's areas in which that it could help. But yeah, I don't think it's ever gonna replace Sasquatch honestly. I just think there's too much human element involved.
Adam Firman (25:04.878)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (25:13.665)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (25:17.164)
Yeah, well I often like it to forensic tools. So you run an extraction for a forensic tool. We then we as MSAB and other vendors out there will present that data to you saying this has come from WhatsApp. But my bosses at MSAB don't like me saying this, but I always say to people never trust at all. You should always validate. So to me, AI is no different.
Claire Chennells (25:18.34)
to let it do its thing.
Claire Chennells (25:24.292)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm.
Claire Chennells (25:34.01)
Hmm.
Claire Chennells (25:39.308)
Mmm... No. Absolutely not. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (25:46.915)
No, and I think exactly the same as you. I felt the same to me. It's like another tool in some sort of way. aiding us. It's pointing us in a direction and we still have to verify it. But if it can speed up some of the tasks and processes, going back to the whole volume thing, there comes a point. I've sat on cases before where
Adam Firman (25:47.062)
It's...
Adam Firman (25:52.225)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (26:05.016)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (26:10.284)
I've now got thousands of videos to get through or listen to thousands of audio messages. And realistically time-wise, can we do every single one in proportionate amount of time when you've got lots of other cases you need to work on as well? It's a difficult one. It's trying to get the right balance. And I just think if AI can help, for example, the videos, if it can like...
Adam Firman (26:15.885)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (26:23.438)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (26:30.744)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (26:38.158)
guide you to a certain time within a video if this event has occurred or transcribes the videos for you, then you could then use a keyword search across it. Then they've got to be opportunities that can assist, I would imagine.
Adam Firman (26:44.952)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (26:51.534)
Yeah, I liken it to police search. If you've got to search in acres and acres of fields, you could bring in 20 search people to go through that field. But or you could just put a drone up. And these are the differences. And I suppose it depends on the severity of if you were looking for a murder victim, for example, you might get a hands.
Claire Chennells (26:57.167)
Mmm.
Mm.
Claire Chennells (27:04.896)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (27:20.736)
in the field search but initially you will put the drone up.
Claire Chennells (27:21.828)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (27:25.328)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you got to do what it takes. So it's a case by case basis, right? It depends on how severe the case is and how much you will throw at it and invest your time in. Yeah, think it's evolved so much as an overtime. When I think about how much technology has evolved over the years, it makes you think what's going to happen in the next 10 years, next 15 years, double the time that we've been doing this. What is it going to look like again?
Adam Firman (27:36.108)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (27:48.215)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (27:53.016)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (27:53.489)
And I always think it's fascinating how things change so quick. you know, because AI wasn't, you know, for me, it's only been heard of the last few years. And then it's, again, it's that adaption, like adapting with the times. And some people are really resistant to it. I know a couple of people who, you know, who I work with that I don't like it, I'm not going to use it. And it's like, you're going to get left behind.
Adam Firman (27:57.846)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (28:04.695)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (28:12.802)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (28:20.642)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (28:21.193)
We are actually encouraged to use AI, so you don't get left behind.
Adam Firman (28:24.46)
Yeah, I think the dangers is the concern about push button forensics and people being over reliant and just blindly trusting.
Claire Chennells (28:29.733)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure it happens. I think, you know, it goes back to probably to our conversation with the officers on division where they probably do view it as sort of a push button. And yeah, obviously we try and teach to use your other methods, even if it's like a manual, make sure you're going over everything and checking everything to be sure. Because at the end of the day, you're going to be standing in the box trying to explain your actions and explain what it is that you found. yeah, there's any up to point you can do, but yeah.
Adam Firman (28:44.61)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (28:53.304)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (29:03.822)
Yeah, I'm a fan of AI, but it's got to be used in the right way.
Adam Firman (29:07.628)
Yeah, and it's a it's a lonely place in that box when you're on your own, isn't it?
Claire Chennells (29:11.408)
Yes, absolutely. It's always made sure, make sure you write your notes. Your notes will always help you. yeah, I've always been one to make sure I can never write enough notes. always got copious amounts. Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:18.91)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:26.732)
Yeah, yeah. And, and we've discussed this about the human side of investigation. It was really interesting to hear that when you became a parent, the job changed for you because I found exactly the same. Prior to that, there was different cases that affected me. Once I become a parent, those cases that didn't affect me suddenly started to but so digital forensics isn't just about the technology is also
Claire Chennells (29:39.44)
Mmm. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (29:45.462)
Mmm... Mmm...
Claire Chennells (29:50.595)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (29:55.267)
you've touched on it dealing with victims, investigators out there, really stressful cases. And unfortunately, a lot of the time dealing with some really difficult material. How important do you feel that resilience and wellbeing are within this profession?
Claire Chennells (30:08.645)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (30:16.592)
It's huge. It's really huge. Personally, I don't feel like there's been enough at times, or maybe it's just not been the understanding of how to deal with it. We all have different thresholds on what we can and can't deal with, like we said before, and you don't know how you're going to feel about it until you're there dealing with it. You can never predict.
what it's going to be like to come across some horrendous material and how it's going to make you feel. And then not only that, it's not when you're dealing with the time when you then go home and how you're feeling when you've got home and is it playing in your mind? Is it playing back in your head, that image? So it's so important to know that you've got those coping mechanisms and it's not.
Adam Firman (30:45.805)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (30:52.846)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (31:04.528)
easy to then go home and you can't really go home and talk about it to your family. It's not the sort of thing you can discuss very easily. So it's like, what is it that you can do to support yourself and others? And it wasn't just about yourself. It was about the others as well, because you're all in it. You're a team. You're sort of working together. And it was the different types of things. like, for me personally, it goes without saying, obviously, the horrendous stuff with children was awful.
Adam Firman (31:10.232)
None.
Adam Firman (31:19.874)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (31:33.839)
I couldn't go looking at images of violence. I was just not very good at dealing with that. just had an effect on me. There were a couple of cases that I went home and it was in my head, but I learned ways of processing and maybe to a degree distraction. So I'd find activities outside of work.
Adam Firman (31:36.695)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (31:56.696)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (31:59.083)
that I'm really into horses, that's my big passion. So I'd go off and have a ride on my horse. And then my mind was completely on something else. But as an industry, I think there's probably more work to do, which I've mentioned before, I'd like to better bring into this working group to help support people on what could be done to allow the opportunity for people to open up and talk and learning the coping mechanisms of what they can do.
Adam Firman (32:07.64)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (32:28.752)
And yeah, like you say about being a becoming a parent, that definitely changed my mindset. I knew full well when I went back to work after maternity leave, I couldn't go back to doing child images. just, my head wasn't ready for it. I spent a long number of years before that doing that. And I was just like, naturally as a parent straight away, was like, I can't, I can't go back to that. And I was really fortunate that my organization were very supportive on that. As I know, we completely understand and that's absolutely fine.
Adam Firman (32:39.564)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (32:44.268)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (32:50.851)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (32:58.948)
There's no harm in being open about that. So we just made adjustments for a period of time where I wasn't doing those crime types. And then in time I could go back to it, but it took a while for me to kind of think, okay, yeah, I'm ready for that now. So everybody's different. Everybody's different in kind of what they can deal with, what their coping's like, their circumstances. Being a parent, I think, does definitely change things for sure.
Adam Firman (33:01.42)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (33:09.206)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Adam Firman (33:17.388)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (33:26.764)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (33:28.432)
It can't not because you have different emotions when you become a parent. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay to say that I can't do that.
Adam Firman (33:31.821)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (33:39.148)
Yeah. And you said your organization were good supporting you when you returned from maternity leave. What other provisions did were in place for people reviewing that material?
Claire Chennells (33:42.98)
Mm. Mm.
Claire Chennells (33:50.705)
So we had like yearly sort of screenings to sort of talk about things. Was that enough? I'm not sure that was enough, if I'm honest. But I think it's difficult for organizations to know what to put in place, because unless they're actually the people that are organizing and not the people in it, knowing what it's like. Yeah, just always within our team, we just...
Adam Firman (34:00.921)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:11.298)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (34:19.404)
managed between ourselves really. if there were, like I said earlier, like if there's something I knew I really, really couldn't cope with looking at, I knew that I had somebody else in the team that would look at that and vice versa, I would do it for them. I think that was our way of dealing with it, that we had our thresholds of, that is too much. I can't do that.
Adam Firman (34:20.962)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:29.826)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:39.533)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (34:40.878)
And not being proud of it. You don't have to be Superman or Superwoman all the time. And there's days where you're stronger than others. So there might be an off day, things going on in your personal life that you're not feeling the strongest. And again, that's okay. We are human. That's just the way it is. And we just have to understand that days will be better than others and days will be stronger than others. And you just do the best job that you can in those sort of situations.
Adam Firman (34:45.581)
No.
Yeah.
Adam Firman (34:55.81)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (35:05.325)
Yeah.
And I don't think we're alone in sort of my organization we used to have six six monthly source screening with an external person and I remember looking back at the time thinking I'm literally attending here and just talking about holidays and any but these people are trained to know what to look for and maybe Sometimes when in your head, you know, you need help. It's probably too late and it probably could have been spotted so I look back and I think
Claire Chennells (35:16.816)
Mm. Mm.
Claire Chennells (35:23.534)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (35:32.208)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Adam Firman (35:37.11)
Six-monthly. Yeah, it probably was the right amount but as many organizations cutbacks happened and it went to a yearly tick box survey Which definitely wasn't enough?
Claire Chennells (35:40.369)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's right. No, it's not. you know, I didn't ever feel like it really benefited the person either. I think it was probably more organizations have to cover themselves that the people doing the job are okay. But in terms of actually probably what people need in terms of conversations, I think that needs to be more.
Adam Firman (35:58.573)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (36:09.762)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (36:10.158)
definitely needs to be more, I think as a community, there needs to be thought of on what people need, what it is that will help them. Because yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely a difficult one. Like how do we support people better?
Adam Firman (36:17.953)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (36:26.252)
Yeah, know, who I'm hoping to put you in touch with Gullan Scott, he did a survey in partnership with forensic focus. And the numbers were shocking of sort of, yeah, people being able to respond and sort of share how they feel they're supported. And yeah, the numbers were terrible.
Claire Chennells (36:33.071)
Mm.
Claire Chennells (36:37.488)
Mm. Yeah, I can imagine.
Claire Chennells (36:47.472)
Mm. Mm. Yeah, just goes to shite, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (36:51.798)
Yeah. Yeah. And it also makes you quite cynical that this world because you sort of you get a real deep look into horrible people. And I remember working a fraud case. And I remember in the fraud case, they were basically investing people's pensions. And they were living life in Dubai with concierges on their unknown victims cash. And that really affected me because
Claire Chennells (37:02.096)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (37:15.658)
Mm. Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Firman (37:22.292)
I sort of, I looked at the victims and thought of my parents and to have all of their life savings. So yeah.
Claire Chennells (37:28.104)
Yeah, yeah, you do. relate it to people, don't you? Like sometimes it touches too close to home on how it makes you feel. Yeah, no, you do. There's like, so it doesn't have to, it doesn't even have to be like a child one. It can be a different type of crime, which can really affect you. Like one of the ones that affected me was mistaken identity. This chap had been severely beaten up.
Adam Firman (37:33.774)
Mm.
Adam Firman (37:43.286)
Mmm. Yeah.
Adam Firman (37:50.403)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (37:54.193)
And I think unfortunately passed at a later stage where he was mistaken, like completely mistaken. And that affected me for a long time afterwards, because I just thought of his family and you know, and thing is when you're looking at devices, you have such an insight into their life, that you almost, you don't know them, but because you're assessing everything in there and reviewing everything, you can't help but feel a sense of their life as part of that.
Adam Firman (38:00.728)
Wow.
Adam Firman (38:04.343)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (38:10.06)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (38:22.734)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (38:23.792)
So yeah, there's definitely, I couldn't stop thinking about it for days afterwards. could just, I think people, when you have a high level empathy, it's difficult to switch off from that. But then yeah, then it comes back to our original point of then you're, you've got to do what you can for justice and to help in a different way.
Adam Firman (38:33.816)
Yeah.
Yeah and
Adam Firman (38:41.814)
Mm hmm. Yeah. And and I think to sort of to sort of wrap that part up, you made the best point and that's about being open, being open with your colleagues, people you work with, people will be receptive to it. That, yeah, you won't get any awards for keeping it all within. And, yeah, you've just made me think about
Claire Chennells (38:51.662)
Yeah.
Mm. definitely.
Claire Chennells (39:03.024)
Mmm.
Adam Firman (39:10.454)
saying that you get an insight into people's lives and you do. Mobile phones are, you can, you know where people like to shop, you know what music they're into and you could basically do a whole profile, can't you, just from a phone extraction.
Claire Chennells (39:12.912)
absolutely.
Claire Chennells (39:20.932)
Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (39:26.76)
Definitely. Like I always said, I always got a feel for people. I would always have a good feeling, I think, whether they've done it or not done it. I know it's not my place to say whether they've done it or not. Obviously, I'm just there to gather the evidence on what it is. But you would, you would get a feeling like, I really don't think they've done this or they've definitely done this. Like you would definitely, obviously, I'm never going to write that in my report, but you definitely, you just get a sense from somebody and the way they talked to other people.
Adam Firman (39:33.9)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (39:41.632)
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (39:51.739)
Like you say, their interests in kind of what they're doing, they're looking at on the internet, there was definitely, you would get a massive snapshot into their life of who they are as a person. You know, it's, you have to almost be a little bit nosy, don't you, to sort of do the job that we do to really get an understanding. Yeah.
Adam Firman (39:53.496)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (40:01.483)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (40:08.214)
Yeah, yeah you do. And people outside this industry they watch the television programs where people just plug a mobile in and magic data comes off. What do you think is the biggest misconception people have about our job?
Claire Chennells (40:17.321)
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (40:27.892)
does it make you laugh when you get people come up to you and say, your job's just like CSI. I've never watched CSI, but I can't tell you the amount of people that said, you've got these screens that appear in front of you and you can touch them and it makes it all sound really fancy. But yeah, it's funny, isn't it, when you speak to people and they ask you what you do. And the amount of times I said, what is that that you do? And you sort of try to explain and yeah, they make it sound like it's some sort of fancy.
Adam Firman (40:41.848)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (40:57.838)
as in a, like something really mystical that you do. I think their perception of what it is. Or people are really interested, like, wow, what is that? That's so interesting. Or, can you hack into my phone? Can you download my phone, like remotely? Like the questions that sort of come then out of it. But I think most people are really interested or intrigued as to what it is. you must see everything on there. It's like, well, yeah, you do. You kind of see everything on there.
Adam Firman (41:02.413)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:07.895)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:14.125)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (41:19.565)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (41:27.62)
Yeah, I've always found that people are really, really interested. Because it is, it's a really interesting job. Yeah, it might be the same process, but every phone's different, every case is different.
Adam Firman (41:30.51)
Yeah, it is an interesting... Yeah. One thing I've found is that once people know what I do, they generally don't leave their phone on a table with me.
Claire Chennells (41:44.785)
100%. Absolutely, yeah. you can see them slurred it off and put in their pocket, like, just keep that away from you. Yeah, very definitely. Yeah, classic. Yeah, I know, amazing. Yeah, it's so true, though.
Adam Firman (41:50.232)
Yeah.
Yeah, as if we can do it wirelessly, yeah.
Adam Firman (42:00.739)
So if I was to invite you back onto this podcast in five years time, what do you think digital forensics will look like?
Claire Chennells (42:09.52)
Oh gosh, that is such a good question, isn't it? I mean, who knows? I mean, they still haven't invented the hoverboard yet, which I'm still waiting for. I know it's not Digital Forensics. Yeah, but I'm a bit disappointed that's not available yet. I don't know. I mean, it's so hard to know what it's going to look like. It's probably going to be even harder, even bigger. I mean, it's... I remember first starting in Digital Forensics where we'd have the number of cases for the year.
Adam Firman (42:17.484)
Yeah, back to the future.
Adam Firman (42:29.741)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (42:39.16)
And each year those cases would double. They would become even more and even more because I people are realizing the value and the evidence that you would find. Everybody's got a mobile phone, right? Quite often the crime that's occurred, the mobile phone is going to be the last available record that's going to be on there. The volumes is what's concerning me. Like the, how big those memory sets get.
Adam Firman (42:41.495)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (42:57.069)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (43:01.198)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (43:05.424)
still laugh about it now, I had a colleague who I used to work with and we used to sort of take the memory cards out of the phones and he'd always say to me, oh Claire, when that gets to 64 gigabytes, I'm quitting, this is going to be too much. Is this going to be too much download? I mean, now look at we are with sizes. What are we up to now? What, terabyte for an iPhone? We've got to be getting close. So I'd imagine the size is only going to keep getting bigger, which is a scary prospect. I'd imagine
Adam Firman (43:20.557)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (43:24.705)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (43:30.699)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (43:34.298)
things, I mean, Apple are always making it very difficult for us in terms of access. So can imagine that's only going to get harder in terms of access for things. AI is going to be an interesting one. Like what was that? What's that going to look like in five years time? That's going to be very different. Yeah, I don't know. You have to watch your space. What we're going to have in five years time. It'll be interesting.
Adam Firman (43:41.453)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (43:49.56)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (43:54.818)
Yeah.
going to be interesting and I want to do something that I haven't done before but I thought this is perfect for you Claire. I want to do some quick fire questions. So Windows or Mac?
Claire Chennells (44:05.488)
Okay. Okay.
Claire Chennells (44:10.976)
It's got to be Windows for me. I do use Macs as well, but Windows is what I learn at college and university and it's like my little comfort blanket. I feel like I can navigate around Windows far easier than a Mac.
Adam Firman (44:27.723)
Android or iPhone.
Claire Chennells (44:29.392)
This is the question that always splits the room. This makes me laugh a lot every time we do this. So I will come back to this, but in my team, we are split down the line between iPhones and Androids and it gets very heated about which who's got what. I'm iPhone for sure, through and through. But I can appreciate some of the good things on an Android. It's always had the best camera, but I prefer the navigation of an iPhone, but I've always been an iPhone user.
Adam Firman (44:33.334)
It is.
Adam Firman (44:45.229)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (44:48.974)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (44:55.095)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (45:00.238)
and tail coffee.
Claire Chennells (45:02.992)
100 % tea. I have to have a tea first thing in the morning, otherwise I can't go through the day, but I do like a good latte. But tea would be my favourite.
Adam Firman (45:07.405)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (45:12.436)
And are you an early bird or a night owl?
Claire Chennells (45:15.82)
I am definitely a night owl. I've never been very good at getting up early, but they say that being a parent changes a lot of things where you do have to be up early. But given the choice, I would far rather be up later than getting up early.
Adam Firman (45:24.64)
It does.
Adam Firman (45:31.788)
Yeah. And what is one forensic skill you believe everyone should learn?
Claire Chennells (45:39.579)
Do you know what? I'm going to dip out and say learning the Excel spreadsheet to its nth degree because as much as you can have all the forensic skills and different forensic tools, but I love a good spreadsheet still. It really assists in so many things. If you can do wonderful things with Excel, it just helps. It goes back to my analytical brain. I love doing the analysis of things.
Adam Firman (45:47.352)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (45:56.983)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (46:04.088)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (46:05.848)
I think if you can nail how to make your life easier with Excel, then that's great.
Adam Firman (46:11.982)
So this is going to blow your mind then. So I don't know if you've come across my colleague, Carl Lawrence on LinkedIn. Have you seen any of his posts? Well, he lives opposite or used to live opposite because the gentleman's moved the former Excel world champion. Did you even know there was such a thing as Excel championships? Yeah. Yeah. So apparently, yeah. And it's held in Vegas. But he
Claire Chennells (46:19.171)
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Claire Chennells (46:31.434)
I did not know. How did I not know about this? That's amazing.
Wow, okay.
Adam Firman (46:41.09)
But he runs a YouTube channel. And I'm sure if you've reached out to Carl and LinkedIn, he'll tell you who it is. But yeah, runs a YouTube channel covering Excel and he's got hundreds of thousands of followers.
Claire Chennells (46:43.458)
Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (46:50.8)
Wow, I love that. I'm definitely gonna have to look that up. Yeah, having been, I I'd say I'm an Excel fan, but that is taking a whole new level.
Adam Firman (46:54.135)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (46:59.242)
It is little did we know that there was a world bout out there for winning excel. Yeah I I would call that true gig uri Yeah And apart from excel what's one piece of technology that you couldn't live about
Claire Chennells (47:03.881)
Who knew? Wow, that is amazing. I love that.
Claire Chennells (47:10.562)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
it's got to be my mobile phone. I hate to admit that, but all my life admin is on my phone. Everything I have to do is the food shop, sorting out school emails, like everything. So I would be so lost without it. Like if I ever accidentally leave at home, I feel like I've lost one of my arms.
Adam Firman (47:24.909)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (47:30.882)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (47:42.444)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (47:43.665)
I just need to use it all the time. Yeah, it's awful listening because I don't like to use too much screen time. do find, know, I'm obviously in front of a screen a lot of the time with work. And then when I get home, I don't want to be on a screen, but I still find myself having to then catch up with personal jobs and that is unfortunately on the screen. So, yeah, I don't have to admit the phone, but it's going to have to be the phone.
Adam Firman (47:46.883)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (47:52.813)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (48:00.727)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Adam Firman (48:08.418)
phone. Perfect. And finally, what's one thing about you that people in digital forensics probably don't know? And it could be a hidden talent, an unusual hobby, or something that always surprises people when they meet you.
Claire Chennells (48:22.576)
Gosh, I can't say I've got any hidden talents. That's really boring, isn't it? I love it when people have got hidden talent or an unusual hobby. The thing is, most people, it makes them laugh in my team because I am, I've already mentioned, horse mad. It drives people around the bend because I just talk horses all the time. So it's not hidden talent or an unusual hobby, but it is something that I'm very much into. Every opportunity that I can talk about horse, I do.
Adam Firman (48:39.809)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (48:49.037)
Yeah.
Claire Chennells (48:52.398)
and it drives them mad. So that's the only thing I can offer on that one. But yeah, three and three horse mads.
Adam Firman (48:52.791)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (48:58.094)
So my old police sergeant, yeah, he was one of my DSers. His wife was into horses and he used to call it his most expensive lawn mower.
Claire Chennells (49:07.248)
Mmm.
Claire Chennells (49:10.884)
That is absolutely true. I mean, I don't know why I pick a hobby like badminton. It would have been cheaper. It would have been better in the winter, stop getting muddy and cold. But I was horse-mared from about the age of two. I don't know where it comes from. But like the digital forensics, it's never gone. It's just always been there. But it goes back to what we were saying about the mental health. It's definitely helped me. It's my absolute switch off. There's something
Adam Firman (49:12.908)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (49:19.149)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (49:30.072)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (49:34.326)
Yeah, it's probably your switch off.
Claire Chennells (49:38.833)
really quiet about a horse that you can just have quiet time with them. So yeah, I think it's important that people can find that thing. If you can find that thing that helps you, that 100 % has helped me during my career to know that I've got a space that I can go to and I can switch off, I can think about the horse, I can go for a ride and enjoy the scenery. I'm looking at all the trees and enjoying the weather and thinking about.
Adam Firman (49:47.5)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (49:56.142)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (50:02.307)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Chennells (50:06.458)
the nice things in life rather than the awful things away. So yeah, it's definitely really important to have.
Adam Firman (50:08.61)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (50:14.304)
And I do exactly the same with a mini horse, a Labrador. And like you say, just just getting out and walking and it allows you to switch off. Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (50:18.554)
AHHHH
Claire Chennells (50:23.056)
I mean, going on a dog walk's perfect, isn't it? You know, just to have, again, even if it's just a short walk, but just to get the fresh air, time, time, I mean, and a dog's the same thing, isn't it? A dog, you know, it loves you so much and it, you know, you can have like a lovely time with the dog and you can play games with it. And it's, again, it's just a space of doing something else. And yeah, they're such loving animals. Animals are definitely really healing, I think, in a lot of ways, sort of mentally. They do really help. Because I think they do,
Adam Firman (50:29.933)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Firman (50:35.767)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (50:41.646)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (50:47.318)
Yeah, they are.
Claire Chennells (50:52.718)
mental health dogs don't they as well these days, they bring them into the office.
Adam Firman (50:54.274)
They do, yeah. My son's school even has them attend. Yeah.
Claire Chennells (50:59.416)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think my daughter's got one at her school as well. It's that the dog sort of comes around to visit the children and yeah, it's something very peaceful about them. So yeah, it's ideal.
Adam Firman (51:05.773)
Yeah.
Adam Firman (51:10.7)
Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining me on Forensic Fix. It's been fantastic hearing about your journey through digital forensics and we've both transitioned from law enforcement to private sector. And I always say to anybody who sort of views my profile on LinkedIn, reach out. I'm more than happy to always have a chat about it. And thank you for sharing your experiences, your insights and your real passion for this industry. And I'm sure our listeners will have plenty to take away from today's conversation.
Claire Chennells (51:28.515)
Absolutely.
Adam Firman (51:39.53)
And like I say, in the show notes, I will reach out for Claire's contact details. So if you're interested in joining or hearing more about the forum that Claire has set up, please get in touch with Claire. And it's been an absolute pleasure having you on.
Claire Chennells (51:53.137)
thank you so much, Adam. I've really enjoyed our time talking today and thank you for inviting me onto your podcast, which I'm a big fan of. It's been an absolute pleasure and I've really enjoyed it.
Adam Firman (52:03.085)
No, thanks there. Goodbye.
Claire Chennells (52:04.945)
Thank you.